RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
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petrol vouchers

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Ray your comments are bang on,nothing worse than paying trainers for running last.This country had 9 years of Helen Clark of telling children its okay if you dont win as she quoted its alright to finish in last position its the participating that counts.Bu-----t. No wonder the Ockers walk all over the Kiwis in every facet of life sport,racing or business.Get rid of the petrol vouchers and put what that cost per year into a proper New Zealand Breeders Scheme, make it of such value to the industry and breeders that there will come a day when New Zealand wouldnt need those planeloads of ticketed dogs that keep getting dumped on these shores.

As for paying for nominations great idea $10 per dog and that money also goes into the breeders scheme.

There are 373 race meetings in the 2009/10 season at 10 races per meeting that comes to $373,000, but many of those meetings are 20 races per meeting. I would has it a guess the petrol voucher total more like $ 450,000 per year.

Caution those vouchers soon add up you have had 1329 as of this morning nice little earner.

As of this mornings total the leading 10 trainers on the premiership have been given $80,604 in petrol vouchers so far this season and theres another 6 months to go.

dam merv you a great one for the numbers.tell me in oz do they pay unplaced money?? same as petrol vouchers?? do they pay noms??i ask you this, does our nz breeders scheme work or did the old one work better 1k per meeting getting shared around?and merv what does it cost to breed a litter of pups rear them up,break in, trial them pay noms to race for 600 bucks.then pay to go in r/a races such as the one coming up. unlucky 4th and you get nothing.i can see everone running to join the game now here they come.

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do you stupid people really think all us little trainers put all our efforts into breeding and buying crap race dog just to fill up the fields!!!!

do you think we dream of coming last!!!!

we sometimes beat the big boys and thats what keeps us going!!!

the fact we get a $20 just means we can actually buy food from the garage so we get to eat once a week!!!

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I agree with $20 noms for NZ bred dogs and $80 for imported dogs.We should drop prize money 15% and put 10% of that on group races and 5% to the admin side of things.Trainers should have to charge a minimum fee for training dogs,lets say 20% more a week than an Auckland boarding kennel.All meetings should be selected for class 5/4/3 dogs only.If that only means 5 or 6 races on a race day so be it.Those who dont get a start should pay $10 noms for non-tote races,with no prize money but should get graded up with every win till they get to a high enuff grade to get to a tote meeting.

Then the importers will bring in class 3 and up dogs which means a better class of dog running around NZ.

Thanks Ray and lets hope our ideas get heard and implemented.

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I agree with $20 noms for NZ bred dogs and $80 for imported dogs.We should drop prize money 15% and put 10% of that on group races and 5% to the admin side of things.Trainers should have to charge a minimum fee for training dogs,lets say 20% more a week than an Auckland boarding kennel.All meetings should be selected for class 5/4/3 dogs only.If that only means 5 or 6 races on a race day so be it.Those who dont get a start should pay $10 noms for non-tote races,with no prize money but should get graded up with every win till they get to a high enuff grade to get to a tote meeting.

Then the importers will bring in class 3 and up dogs which means a better class of dog running around NZ.

Thanks Ray and lets hope our ideas get heard and implemented.

this is the most nonsense ive ever herd are you from earth matee!Have to say we need something for the trainers instead of employing so many maybe 15% stake rise lol,how much time and cost do you it takes to make sure there is meetings.why don't we have a travel subsidy for travelling long distances?

We really need a concrete foundation for this crumbling developement, stake cuts,unsafe tracks and wasting money.

I think we need a set criteria in the grading for the whole country and have a two start and you get in for low grade meetings and three start for high grade meaning C5 down to c2,low grade non-tote races,and c0 to c2 payed a little less and top up high grade meetings.

its no worries as im only a worker but to take the petrol vouchers away would just make it harder for everyone in the game and its always tough when you get into a swing theres always a round about which turn will be the next........................cheers steve

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this is the most nonsense ive ever herd are you from earth matee!Have to say we need something for the trainers instead of employing so many maybe 15% stake rise lol,how much time and cost do you it takes to make sure there is meetings.why don't we have a travel subsidy for travelling long distances?

We really need a concrete foundation for this crumbling developement, stake cuts,unsafe tracks and wasting money.

I think we need a set criteria in the grading for the whole country and have a two start and you get in for low grade meetings and three start for high grade meaning C5 down to c2,low grade non-tote races,and c0 to c2 payed a little less and top up high grade meetings.

its no worries as im only a worker but to take the petrol vouchers away would just make it harder for everyone in the game and its always tough when you get into a swing theres always a round about which turn will be the next........................cheers steve

You seem to have a problem with spelling and literacy and also comprehension. Can you not detect when someone is taking the p--s ?

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dam merv you a great one for the numbers.tell me in oz do they pay unplaced money?? same as petrol vouchers?? do they pay noms??i ask you this, does our nz breeders scheme work or did the old one work better 1k per meeting getting shared around?and merv what does it cost to breed a litter of pups rear them up,break in, trial them pay noms to race for 600 bucks.then pay to go in r/a races such as the one coming up. unlucky 4th and you get nothing.i can see everone running to join the game now here they come.

Caution im all for going back to the old breeders scheme where you have a set amount of money per meeting to be paid to all New Zealand Breds who WIN at that meeting, but not $1000 but increased to $2000 per meeting and as before paid between all NZ bred winners.ie If there are 10 NZ bred winners then its $200 per winner if only 1 NZ Bred then it gets the $2000, no NZ Bred winners for the day then that jackpots to the next meeting. But of course to have this scheme there would have to be a cost, and that would be to ditch the petrol voucher scheme and bring in $10 nominations.

Between the two it should create a capital total of something $850,000 to $1,000,000 per year.

We have been lucky enough to benifit from the current Breeders Scheme,but to be perfectly honest I would sooner revert back to the old scheme where the money can cover a greater amount of Breeders.

That in itself has to be more benificial for the industry rather than in just a selected few peoples pocket.

Petrol Vouchers do nothing for the industry except a bit of gas in your tank, a proper breeders scheme that makes it so benificial to breed would make the industry a New Zealand stand alone not having to put up with Australia flogging off all there nonnies and ticketed dogs.

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Well I have asked our LP's rep to put forward to GRA that we get $30 appearance money.

The reason is to help the O/T stay in the sport, for the sake of an extra $10.The GRA said NO.

I put in a remit last year that we go back to the old gobis, I will do it again.

I bought it up at a meeting at Manawatu

with T Deed and he did not know what

I was talking about.

That what happens when we get new people on our board.Where is he?

Remember Gobis did encourage people to buy Kiwi,and you had a choice of buying into it or not (some mugs didn't).

We think the biggest reason for replacing that scheme was too much effort needed by the only office worker left,without a swanky title.

Bev (with a couple of Andy's add on's)

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Ray your comments are bang on,nothing worse than paying trainers for running last.This country had 9 years of Helen Clark of telling children its okay if you dont win as she quoted its alright to finish in last position its the participating that counts.Bu-----t. No wonder the Ockers walk all over the Kiwis in every facet of life sport,racing or business.Get rid of the petrol vouchers and put what that cost per year into a proper New Zealand Breeders Scheme, make it of such value to the industry and breeders that there will come a day when New Zealand wouldnt need those planeloads of ticketed dogs that keep getting dumped on these shores.

As for paying for nominations great idea $10 per dog and that money also goes into the breeders scheme.

There are 373 race meetings in the 2009/10 season at 10 races per meeting that comes to $373,000, but many of those meetings are 20 races per meeting. I would has it a guess the petrol voucher total more like $ 450,000 per year.

Caution those vouchers soon add up you have had 1329 as of this morning nice little earner.

As of this mornings total the leading 10 trainers on the premiership have been given $80,604 in petrol vouchers so far this season and theres another 6 months to go.

I see you seem to believe in the saying if you say things often enough people will believe them. So you upload the same post twice.

The idea that "if you don't win ... it's alright to finish in last position its the participating that counts" is the invention of Helen Clark or anyone else, or came about in recent years is a myth.

When I was at school in the 1960s the saying "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game that counts," was already a cliche that had been around for decades or more before then. Despite that cliche the All Blacks ruled the roost in world rugby and their problem maintaining that dominance has nothing to do with that but rather the advent of professionalism and the rest of the world catching us up. Other sports have improved their strike rate in the meantime but we will always look for scapegoats for failings and overlook advances especially when rugby is concerned.

That nonsense fails to explain our growing successes in cycling, rowing, karate (Oceania Juniors etc), boxing, triathlon etc to mention a few. Besides, the comparison of a country of three small main islands and a population of around 4million with a continent with a huge land mass, almost infinite natural resources and population in excess of 20million is stupid, pointless and unrealistic. NZ does and always has done well in most areas often punching well above its weight and doesn't need the silly excuses you put up. Since we first started sending teams to the Olympics our medal strike rate per head of pop has been amongst the top few nations in the world.

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Caution im all for going back to the old breeders scheme where you have a set amount of money per meeting to be paid to all New Zealand Breds who WIN at that meeting, but not $1000 but increased to $2000 per meeting and as before paid between all NZ bred winners.ie If there are 10 NZ bred winners then its $200 per winner if only 1 NZ Bred then it gets the $2000, no NZ Bred winners for the day then that jackpots to the next meeting. But of course to have this scheme there would have to be a cost, and that would be to ditch the petrol voucher scheme and bring in $10 nominations.

Between the two it should create a capital total of something $850,000 to $1,000,000 per year.

We have been lucky enough to benifit from the current Breeders Scheme,but to be perfectly honest I would sooner revert back to the old scheme where the money can cover a greater amount of Breeders.

That in itself has to be more benificial for the industry rather than in just a selected few peoples pocket.

Petrol Vouchers do nothing for the industry except a bit of gas in your tank, a proper breeders scheme that makes it so benificial to breed would make the industry a New Zealand stand alone not having to put up with Australia flogging off all there nonnies and ticketed dogs.

The 'voucher' system is not to reward dogs for running last. If you run fourth you also get one. It's a minimum appearance fee which most other entertainment codes also provide including professional sports bodies and some of their teams also win. What owner is going to turn down the chance of a $900 winning stake and aim for a $20 voucher?

Like others you continue to ignore the fact that the vouchers are for owners not trainers and if trainers end up with them then it is the fault of the owners, poor ethics on the part of the trainer, or a legitimate agreement between the two to cover what the trainer charges the owner for travel. Similar arguments would apply to prize money if all that ends up in the hands of trainers.

I agree with the boosting if the breeders accounts but raiding one account to fund another does not progess us (or robbing Peter to pay Paul as the old saying goes). Likewise returning to charging nom fees again.

While you can tally up the extra income that these actions may generate you have not debited against it the owners who might exit the industry and revert to just punters again with yet more rising costs imposed whether travel or noms etc. That decrease results not only in less income from noms but consequently less dogs available to maintain the current level of fields and dates and in the end exacerbate the very influx of planeloads of Oz dogs you are complaining of.

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Also a subsidy should be bought in for all of us that are importing quality racing animals from Australia.

Why?! Again another example of someone thinking that if they make a statement it has to accepted as a self evident truth without any supporting arguments.

Why not also a subsidy for every visiting Australian person who visits a racetrack when they come over? (I won't put up any supporting argument for that either - mainly because I think it as silly as your suggestion).

Actually we do have a subsidy for imported dogs - it's called prize money.

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Caution im all for going back to the old breeders scheme where you have a set amount of money per meeting to be paid to all New Zealand Breds who WIN at that meeting, but not $1000 but increased to $2000 per meeting and as before paid between all NZ bred winners.ie If there are 10 NZ bred winners then its $200 per winner if only 1 NZ Bred then it gets the $2000, no NZ Bred winners for the day then that jackpots to the next meeting. But of course to have this scheme there would have to be a cost, and that would be to ditch the petrol voucher scheme and bring in $10 nominations.

Between the two it should create a capital total of something $850,000 to $1,000,000 per year.

We have been lucky enough to benifit from the current Breeders Scheme,but to be perfectly honest I would sooner revert back to the old scheme where the money can cover a greater amount of Breeders.

That in itself has to be more benificial for the industry rather than in just a selected few peoples pocket.

Petrol Vouchers do nothing for the industry except a bit of gas in your tank, a proper breeders scheme that makes it so benificial to breed would make the industry a New Zealand stand alone not having to put up with Australia flogging off all there nonnies and ticketed dogs.

I believe that the Industry should return to a GOBIS type series with one difference - both the Stud dog and the Brood bitch should be domiciled in New Zealand,so as a bitch can't be sent overseas and then come back in pup and then those pups be eligible to compete in the Series.Because insemmination is done by other codes does not make it OK for the offspring of overseas insemminated NZ greyhounds to be eligible.

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I believe that the Industry should return to a GOBIS type series with one difference - both the Stud dog and the Brood bitch should be domiciled in New Zealand,so as a bitch can't be sent overseas and then come back in pup and then those pups be eligible to compete in the Series.Because insemmination is done by other codes does not make it OK for the offspring of overseas insemminated NZ greyhounds to be eligible.

Good point. Currently there is every disincentive available to encourage breeders to stand a stud dog. Instead of a fair choice between overseas sires and local ones it is a limited choice with everything stacked in favour of the imported FS. Whether the FS inseminated (or overseas mated) bitches still qualify for some incentive is arguable though as they are still adding to the locally bred base as opposed to complete imports. Perhaps two types of incentives applying to progeny of NZ bitches and those sired by NZ sires as well. But I agree there needs to be some focus on addressing the stock of NZ sires. When you look at our better performed NZ sires, the major thing separating them from their FS counterparts is opportunities, quality of bitches available to them and numbers of runners. As I have said before Willy What and Fashion Thief, Sydney Title and Thrilling Sam all have very comparable results, racetrack performance, pedigree and strikes rates etc with FS sires - the difference being opportunities.

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Phil.

Y Y Y

Do U people want to keep on making things so complicated, for goodness sakes the NZ series races for $11000 is this not enough money.Do not think U should B pushing this barrow as U have a vested interest.

Lion.

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Good point. Currently there is every disincentive available to encourage breeders to stand a stud dog. Instead of a fair choice between overseas sires and local ones it is a limited choice with everything stacked in favour of the imported FS. Whether the FS inseminated (or overseas mated) bitches still qualify for some incentive is arguable though as they are still adding to the locally bred base as opposed to complete imports. Perhaps two types of incentives applying to progeny of NZ bitches and those sired by NZ sires as well. But I agree there needs to be some focus on addressing the stock of NZ sires. When you look at our better performed NZ sires, the major thing separating them from their FS counterparts is opportunities, quality of bitches available to them and numbers of runners. As I have said before Willy What and Fashion Thief, Sydney Title and Thrilling Sam all have very comparable results, racetrack performance, pedigree and strikes rates etc with FS sires - the difference being opportunities.

Philocon, just to clear something up for me these better performed nz sires you name would they be classed as aussie imports as on greyhound data they were all whelped in aussie and some even raced there...i just cant get my head around why some one would want to put these ahead of f/s from aussie and make two classes of bonus scheme.

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Philocon, just to clear something up for me these better performed nz sires you name would they be classed as aussie imports as on greyhound data they were all whelped in aussie and some even raced there...i just cant get my head around why some one would want to put these ahead of f/s from aussie and make two classes of bonus scheme.

do not take as gospel what you read on the data base . All of the dogs I have raced were nz bred I know because I bred them. However they are all listed as aussie bred.

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Philocon, just to clear something up for me these better performed nz sires you name would they be classed as aussie imports as on greyhound data they were all whelped in aussie and some even raced there...i just cant get my head around why some one would want to put these ahead of f/s from aussie and make two classes of bonus scheme.

It's where the sire is based and registered that determines whether it is an OZ, NZ or Irish sire not where it was whelped. The majority of our leading sires over the years have been imported - Sandy Shane, Patris, Wendy's Legend, Old Glory Boy, etc. Thoroughbred racing the same until there was greater acceptance of homebreds and advent of shuttle sires - CopenhagenII, Resurgent, PakistanII, Sir Tristram, etc. I am not so familiar with the Harness code but suspect a similar pattern there prior to FS etc.

Every country uses imported stock to kick start it's breeding industry or introduce new bloodlines. Otherwise it would not get off the ground and if it did it would stagnate and the gene pool would become too small.

As an example - If someone chose to import a dog of the calibre of Big Daddy Cool and stand him here, as things stand he would never get the chance to show he is the calibre of sire we see today. Local breeders would be buying semen of lesser quality sires on the FS bank etc instead.

It already happens now. There are FS sires with better opportunities than some of the NZ based ones whose FS is selling while the better performed local sires struggle to attract bitches.

That is not to say that breeders should not use the Brett Lee, Big Daddy Cool, Ahane Lad, Just The Best, Token Pribce, Hallucinate, Where's Pedro etc when it is the best option for their broodies. However if the local sires of equivalent calibre are not given the chance then a local breeding industry will never get properly established.

Most countries and every code implements policies to foster and incentivise local breeding and in Ireland they even get govt legislative support. Greyhound studs along with equine studs can meet the criteria of farms under their laws and qualify for their govt agricultural subsidies and incentives sometimes.

Such policies benefit greyhound racing generally not just locally. For example the success of the Irish breeding industry saw the establishment and/or boosting of the code in Australia, USA, NZ, North & South America, Europe even the UK. Subsequently the success of those countries has seen the Irish & UK breeding industries benefit through the importing of the results of their own exports in the form of Top Honcho etc. Their top dog a few seasons ago Razldazl Billy was by Brett Lee and he is now at stud there.

So long term a healthy breeding scene here could even benefit Oz breeders as well as our own. But that doesn't happen without planning and encouragement. Laisse faire and doing nothing might seem great in theory to some but has never worked in practice.

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Phil.

Y Y Y

Do U people want to keep on making things so complicated, for goodness sakes the NZ series races for $11000 is this not enough money.Do not think U should B pushing this barrow as U have a vested interest.

Lion.

Tell me anyone in racing who does not have a vested interest. When it comes to racing greyhounds you are completely impartial and disinterested? Many of the criticisms of the current board on this forum have been that not enough of them have vested interests in the code to want to fight hard enough for it. It's not whether we all have a vested interest in racing or not but whether we are pushing the interests of the code generally or our own personal ones. Incentives I push for are for all locally bred stock not just my own and then we all still have to breed progeny good enough to win those incentives & rewards. With your argument almost every committee member of every club, and all regional reps on the board would be ineligible and we'd have to abolish the LP rep's position.

I actually was pushing the cause of recognition of local sires before we ever decided to stand one. In fact it was that that probably led to it as initially we had made a decision not to stand any sire.

If I was pushing only my own vested interests I doubt if I would spend time running the NZ breeding website or have involved myself in the code in the past to the degree I did - maybe I shouldn't have I might have directly benefitted myself more.

Many besides me would argue that an increase in the incentives for local breeding are necessary and warranted.

It's not about making things more complicated; just reviewing, possibly extending incentives to target the areas where they would be most effective. It is not compulsory to run your dogs in NZRS races, nor was it compulsory in the GOBIS series either. You can choose to focus on other events or issues if you want.

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Thanks Philocon, playing devil's advocate though has the cart come before the horse, nz has access to the best f/s from around the world and does operate on a small whelping base per year compared with australia so would it not be more prudent to first increase the quality of the bitches.I know everyone could name a good producing bitch in nz but i think for the whelpings per year they are few and far between. Because a bitch in nz gets to cl5 is that the same quality as when people say you should breed from a city winning bitch from a city winning bitch........no disrespect to anyone but if change is needed for survival in this industry we cannot keep doing the same things and i dont believe its all down to the f/s or nz basd stud dog....

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I would take it a step furhter and say that banning F/S woul be of huge detriment to the NZ breeding industry.

We have bred greyhounds for 30 years and stood a few stud dogs during that period (one of them winning sire of the year). If I was about to mate a bitch right now and looked through the NZ stud dog register I would think again. On the other hand looking through the F/S bank would give me optimism.

I believe it is really important we do use F/S but few of the dogs in the bank listed in our magazine. There are so many of those sires that are getting dangerously closely inbred especially when most of the new band of broodies here are from the same lines, we need an urgent injection of blood from elsewhere (maybe more from USA or the Irish lines that have not been mixed with popular Aus lines yet).

I think that the ones that look at outcrossing will hold the key to sucess in the next 10 years.

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