RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
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AGM/One racing

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Stig, I hope you are right. There is no point at all for Harness or Greyhounds to accept or discuss anything, given the treatment they have been handed.

Nerula, Your reading of Freda's point indicates that you were unaware of the vote situation. Respectfully I suggest you may be unaware of other things. I AM a member of Auckland and have been for 25 years. I am a member of the NZTBA since 72 and sat on the Breeders Council for nearly a decade. Also Nerula, that gave me plenty of insight as to the problems within the industry, so please don't patronise me with your comment about romantic notions. I may forget more than you ever know.

Dodgey, you highlight the very problem in your opening comments. Because they, the sitting Directors, may be owners or breeders and members of clubs all at the one time which is why there has to be a balance to the Board table from capable and forward thinking Directors who want to look to the future. You need robust discussion on the agenda items at Board meetings, not "you nominate and I'll second it" type of actions where certain parties get what they want and the industry is the casualty.

Please read what I am saying clearer. ALL stakeholders have to have a VOTE including the clubs. It just has to be balanced, with the Chair being the deciding vote.

If you believe the system of representation and voting on the NZTR Board is fair and equitable as it stands at the moment, then boy, you have no idea as to how far this industry is going to go backwards.

A little statistic for you. 25 years ago racing had 87% of the betting dollar of the NZ public, now it struggles to get 6%. It loses $250 million dollars of turnover to off shore betting on top of that. And you seriously believe they, TR and RB, are doing a good job!!! .....Yeah Right.

Oh, I almost forgot. Racing juristictions that are doing well at the moment. France, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore.....

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Thanks for that clarification John.

I think there's enough evidence in your comments and others to show that the current governance model is not working.

Other sports have had similar problems ie rampant self interest and horse trading (excuse the pun). Increasingly, this has resulted in the appointment of independent boards charged to run affairs for the greater good.

There in lies the nub. The current model encourages self interest and any model that provides representation of other sector groups will likewise lead to a same outcome.

The only approach that will solve this is to appoint independent directors and I can't see this getting through the current model unless forced from the very top.

I'm not sure whether you were inferring I think the RB is doing a good job. I'm simply stating that they control the purse strings, even tho we provide the product.

Your figures re betting are powerful as it illustrates the underlying social and economic problems facing racing. Racing is no longer a monopoly and has to fit for a smaller share which is why we need to focus on our customers as much if not more than the stakeholders.

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Please read what I am saying clearer. ALL stakeholders have to have a VOTE including the clubs. It just has to be balanced, with the Chair being the deciding vote.

Any who is going to be there on the Board representing the REAL WORKERS??? or do their Intere$ts Not Count! :e:

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The "Real workers" are part of the equation of stakeholders. Can you help identify who and what you mean by the reference "Real workers"? Your tone tends to indicate that you think there is a missing person at the Board table, but please explain what form the representation should be of "real workers". What sector is missing in your view?

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What sector is missing in your view?

Stablehands

Stud Workers

Track Workers

etc...

They don't need to be represented by there BOSSES! that's all last century... if any industry wants to treat its workers as dumb then....

I will not comment about this 'industry' historical 'problems' coming up regarding 'labour'.... you watch them bite over the next 20/30 years....

Where is the Punter$ rep! and NO I don't accept that all those other mentioned are also 'punters' and will have a place! I am especially referring to all those who are just punter$!

The lack of respect to punters historically is why so many are SO Alienanated! and now, so many of them no longer are prepared to wager...

To me John this industry has always been anti-working class! now it is suffering for it... a industry in Historical Decline! sad for us keen ones... I could talk for hours on this subject... if you ever find yourself in Dunedin John...

If you happen to get to Trentham on Saturday take a look at that wonderful gap between the Members and the other stand! It so shows how the 'WC' were put over there! in there place!

Actually John, another nice piece of anit-working class Politics was in the news today. The minimum wage was increase 25cents! below the cost of inflation!!! Just dumb politics! as any rise gets 100% spent back into the economy! Policy by the people -Tory$ - who have Historically ran racing!

So John, there you go! :cool:

ps. Elsewhere it has been mentioned there are 18,000 workers connected to the 'industry', I would love to see this figure broken down.

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John I did not try and patronize you. In fact I was offended at the gross disrespect you show to racing committee stalwarts. You impugn them by suggesting that some messiah is needed who has a heavy financial involvement in racing to lead us out of the woods. Is it true that you believe that such a figure would be more effective than the current democratic process.

On this site we have able administrators such Beecee and John McGifford who contribute from time to time. Your dismissive posts would make them wonder why the hell they put so much effort in at their own personal cost.

Perhaps they are able to ignore your ilk.

Sure you have been around the traps longer than me. Doesnt mean you are smarter or better informed

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A little statistic for you. 25 years ago racing had 87% of the betting dollar of the NZ public, now it struggles to get 6%. It loses $250 million dollars of turnover to off shore betting on top of that. And you seriously believe they, TR and RB, are doing a good job!!! .....Yeah Right. Oh, I almost forgot. Racing juristictions that are doing well at the moment. France, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore.....

25 years ago, John, was about the time that Racing began to get competition for the punting dollar from Lotto. That was, too, about the time that Saturday trading came in, if I remember rightly. Folk now have a lot more to do - and, remember, professional sport now draws off many who might otherwise have gone to the races.

It's interesting, too, that New Zealand's response to having less discretionary income going towards Racing (of all 3 codes) has been to simply increase the number of races available. What are we up to now - 11 races often at the gallops. I - you, too, I bet - can remember the hoo-ha when an 8th or 9th race was first mooted.

You use four other countries as examples of places doing well - each has a centralised population base often far greater than New Zealand has and yet each races sparingly: Hong Kong twice a week, for example, invariably with top-notch fields. Result? Easier form to follow, more reason to bet confidently...

That $250 million off-shore 'loss' is the real killer, though. And I have no idea how to patch that leak - I seriously doubt our TAB will 'modernize' in sufficient terms as to entice those using offshore accounts to instead spend their money solely in New Zealand.

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That $250 million off-shore 'loss' is the real killer, though. And I have no idea how to patch that leak - I seriously doubt our TAB will 'modernize' in sufficient terms as to entice those using offshore accounts to instead spend their money solely in New Zealand.

Thats the easy part. Reduce the take-out and hurt the parasites offering %+ in the pocket.

One Racing explored cost savings everywhere except the most obvious point.

RB has exploded in the last 5 years. Most of it was warranted in getting the car modernised and back on the road. But do we really need them all now, just to check the tyres and tinker with the motor?

We are heading toward a cost structure similar to any one of the 3 main OZ states, with a fraction of their turnover.

We are so tightly modelled on their operation, why not mesh the day to day running in with one of theirs?

Our little industry cannot go forward unless we streamline it's operation. It's currently burdened with an eating disorder!

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Racing began to get competition for the punting dollar from Lotto.

And look at how racing leadership approached Lotto! stuck their head in the sand! Did they think "hey we have a wonderful shop front (tabs) and computer system to supply this upcoming new product! nope, lets pretend its not there! geee, they could have got to 'click every lotto ticket' and get new punters into the tabs...

But! the key! primary! reason that people STOPPED going to the races was the way that they were treated!

Here's a prediction, with this new BYO ban now being introduced to many big race days - and I tip my hat to the success that some clubs have had with there food and bar takings on these bigs days! - it will not take long for many of these once a year punters start to say nope! no value here... short term gain, but long term falling numbers... was it really the weather that keep all those people away from Trentham last Saturday?

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Reduce the take-out ...

One Racing explored cost savings everywhere except the most obvious point.

arrr the 'take-out'... that doesn't make great reading if you look at that over the years... just another example of the disrespect delivered to punters... the chickens have well and truly come home to roust... :e: ...pass me one of those $6 beers! :rolleyes:

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Bookmakers have always been part of racing, and always will.

Whilst the TAB were able to return 92.5 % to the punter, bookies were a mere convenience for those too lazy to walk past the pub to the TAB agency.

Now, with an 82% return from the same source, punters quite rightly seek some fairness elsewhere, either on other forms of gambling or with bookies safely able to operate on a near 90% return.

Yet it's the same people bleating about "leakage" that continue to rape the punters for their corporatised monster.

The John Clydesdales of the world, and they seem to be everywhere at present, continue to throw their spears at NZTR reps and it's structure.

Start aiming up on the real target and we may just be able to stop the bleeding.

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John I did not try and patronize you. In fact I was offended at the gross disrespect you show to racing committee stalwarts. You impugn them by suggesting that some messiah is needed who has a heavy financial involvement in racing to lead us out of the woods. Is it true that you believe that such a figure would be more effective than the current democratic process.

On this site we have able administrators such Beecee and John McGifford who contribute from time to time. Your dismissive posts would make them wonder why the hell they put so much effort in at their own personal cost.

Perhaps they are able to ignore your ilk.

Sure you have been around the traps longer than me. Doesnt mean you are smarter or better informed

I am certainly in no way criticising the committee members of clubs. Nerula, again you jump too soon. As a personal friend of BC, he is aware that my point is not aimed at club committees, presidents or regional representatives. I am also not suggesting that people with the most invested have their personal right to be on the Board either.

What I am trying to say is that ALL people with vested interests should have votes at the Boardroom table. Those votes should be cast by the appropriate Directors after full and robust discussion about the topic. But the Board, critically for me, has to generate the strategic planning for the industry for the next five, ten and twenty years. Put together a Board of experienced Directors, those without personal and vested self interests as their motivation and influencers of their vote decision making process, and you will make progress.

When I first joined the NZTBA Council I tried to get the idea of microchip insertions, as a means for identifying our horses, discussed and progressed at our Board table. The President at that time, and another substantial studmaster, thought I had dropped in from another planet and completely quashed such a ludicrous suggestion. Ten years later, it was introduced. I have no axe to grind here, but I had the experience and exposure of IT to recognise how our industry can and should utilise IT to improve our efficiencies.

Any Board requires experienced input. But first you have to get a VOTE on that Board that allows your presence to have some MEANING.

As for the Punters being on the Board. Not applicable as far as I am concerned as Punters vote with their feet as they are consumers. Put the right product in front of them.....then they bet.

To comment about the other competitive betting products. Yes there have been many, one armed bandits are by far the most serious competition, and yes, our TAB and RIB guys have failed to combat the competitors. They will have all sorts of answers as to why, but what cannot be denied is that while the gambling dollar has multiplied substantially over the years, our share of it has reduced. Our response to the competition is pathetic!!!!

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And REAL Workers representation? I would be surprised if many Stablehands etc are members of clubs! or do they not count? :e:

Why wouldnt they be members of a club. Some clubs annual fee would be as low as $50 and some stablehands would spend that much a week on smokes.

Roughy you dream of some state contolled socialist system. Well we had that for 9 years HC, Winnie and the politically appointed NZRB pulling the levers.

Well hello! that is what was found to be inefficient and what we are trying to improve on.

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Why wouldnt they be members of a club. Some clubs annual fee would be as low as $50

I presume that most don't get involved for the same reason that just about all community groups suffer to get people involved,... lack of time... hard to got to meetings at night if you are getting up at sparrows fart... plus! lets get real here Neil! stablehands have been treated like the lowest of the low... it hasn't really been that long that trainers and jockeys had a organised voice... racing has been run for the rich by the rich... again, the chickens have came home to roust!

Roughy you dream of some state contolled socialist system.

Nope Neil, its time for Workers to have there voice heard by having a seat at the top table! and that is a direct voice! not the voice of their Boss! it's 2010 no 1910...

as mentioned, 'labour' the hidden crises... imagine if the crop numbers were not fulling the way they are, imagine, if there were 2000 horse to go into training... where would the workers come from?

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David Abrh. I listened to all that bosses/workers, Them and Us cloth capped crap as a poor lowly apprentice and never bought into it. The sheds were full of it.

I do believe in equal chances and that anybody can get ahead in any game.

I have never slung a jockey but some stable staff I know have got some tasty tickets from me. Enough for them to be a member at say Counties. The AGM is on an October Sunday (day off) and the luncheon after is worth the sub.

How much is it to belong to your club

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Nerula, I take your point. Some workers have joined clubs and gone on to breed and race horses, but I also think you miss the point. Members' responsibilities in clubs are to further the constitutional aims and objectives of the club. Decision making and voting is centred on that. I'm not aware of any clubs which have objectives that include advancing the well-being of industry workers. If you know of one, please let me know. Maybe I'll join. I doubt that joining a club for a free lunch will accomplish that somehow.

David Abrh. I listened to all that bosses/workers, Them and Us cloth capped crap as a poor lowly apprentice and never bought into it. The sheds were full of it.

I do believe in equal chances and that anybody can get ahead in any game.

I have never slung a jockey but some stable staff I know have got some tasty tickets from me. Enough for them to be a member at say Counties. The AGM is on an October Sunday (day off) and the luncheon after is worth the sub.

How much is it to belong to your club

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Workers input into Management at the Highest Level. or is it getting involved with you local racing club :cool:

David Abrh. I listened to all that bosses/workers, Them and Us cloth capped crap as a poor lowly apprentice and never bought into it. The sheds were full of it.

cool,...

I do believe in equal chances and that anybody can get ahead in any game.

cool, Neil I believe you to! :y:

I have never slung a jockey but some stable staff I know have got some tasty tickets from me. Enough for them to be a member at say Counties. The AGM is on an October Sunday (day off) and the luncheon after is worth the sub.

Well done!

Re your club day, hope you get a good turnout... regenerating people into your local club would make a good thread here...

How much is it to belong to your club

way under 100...

you might have to go get a cuppa tea Neil, this next bit seems to have go on abit...

for what its worth, i have at times put in some serious thinking about whether I should front up there - my local club - to get involved,... I have take counsel and the answer has always been no! I will ring you sometime, soon and explain... its all about time management for me... mainly around the need to prioritise 'my sport coaching' and my input into local 'community' stuff with the local 'underclass',.. ((which would scare most! heheh I think I'm on first name with over 50 local coppers :rolleyes: )) simply put! I don't have the time to do the job I feel I would need to if I did get involved! My time is very important to me.

Anyway, my involvement re something like 'cafe has always *attempted* to focus on areas of commonality with people that visit here regarding horses and their histories, along with the people that have got the job done on raceday... mostly! its been a lot of fun, especially enjoying quizzes etc... I could comment about my dislike about the amount of bile! and style of political discourse of certain people that propagate here but I will not, for now!

Back to my thrust of "Worker Involvement in Management" while it would work at Club Level to me if its not supported in any Industry at the Highest Political Level then that industry is certainly for historic doom, much like our racing industry... which is such a bummer as I so like it on a personal level and get so much enjoyment when I'm ever on course, which has been 1000's of times so far... :cool:

But! life has also lead me into being 'educated' via various Union and related Workers groups... my peers seem to now have masters & phd's... one close friend has recently come back from working at 'world quarters' on the subject regarding worker involvement in management etc, thats where the future is going to be... hard to disagree... but the chance of it happening with nz racing YEAH RIGHT :D

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Roughy, I do appreciate your position on this and other matters you get involved in. I respect your efforts and integrity. I think we have travelled similar roads although our politics may differ

It would seem to me that the most democratic way to run racing is the existing club system. It fails when communities do not take an interest by joining and exercising their vote.

Now Jack the "rich" owner only has one vote the same as Jill the strapper provided they are both members.

From my observation the problems start when cliques are formed. Parochialism can create self interest where certain folks filch others "goods". This is a result of a failure to have a fully democratic organisation. It lacks vision

As an aside I believe the clubs must pay attention to the health and safety issues of all those workers on course. Particularly those with a duty of care to horses. The amenities should include

a canteen handy to the stalls where decent quality food and drink can be bought at a reasonable cost.

Peace brother

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I am certainly in no way criticising the committee members of clubs. Nerula, again you jump too soon. As a personal friend of BC, he is aware that my point is not aimed at club committees, presidents or regional representatives. I am also not suggesting that people with the most invested have their personal right to be on the Board either.

What I am trying to say is that ALL people with vested interests should have votes at the Boardroom table. Those votes should be cast by the appropriate Directors after full and robust discussion about the topic. But the Board, critically for me, has to generate the strategic planning for the industry for the next five, ten and twenty years. Put together a Board of experienced Directors, those without personal and vested self interests as their motivation and influencers of their vote decision making process, and you will make progress.

When I first joined the NZTBA Council I tried to get the idea of microchip insertions, as a means for identifying our horses, discussed and progressed at our Board table. The President at that time, and another substantial studmaster, thought I had dropped in from another planet and completely quashed such a ludicrous suggestion. Ten years later, it was introduced. I have no axe to grind here, but I had the experience and exposure of IT to recognise how our industry can and should utilise IT to improve our efficiencies.

Any Board requires experienced input. But first you have to get a VOTE on that Board that allows your presence to have some MEANING.

OK John I dont disagree with the above. As far as NZTR goes there are the regional directors appointed by the clubs. Then you have the directors appointed by the Owners, Trainers, Breeders etc organisations.

Now if you took the same number across the three codes and added in NZRB representation you would have an organisation that is unwieldly. So you are left with a governance that would follow your model of notably qualified directors. One would hope!

However the grassroots of racing clubs (to please Roughy lets call it the proletariat) are the base of the pyramid. Without a proper base it wont stand well.

For myself I am a longstanding member of a club that is well run. I have had some success

as an owner so I am happy to "put in", in owners affairs and I work to improve the outcomes to owners.

At national AGM I remarked in informal conversation that I followed RaceCafe to gauge the industry climate. To a man/woman the reaction I got was dismay. They cried, "Its so damn negative" and there were allusions to nutters.

So I can react defensively and I may have perceived that you were lighting a torch for a reason other than showing the way. NM

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Good to see the passion zzz, but the cynicism isn't that flattering for you other than being amusing. You have a way with the written word, but you know that already.

We choose to disagree on the manner in which the subject matter is being approached with One Racing. I have no criticism with the people you outline, and I have told you that personally, most of whom I either know or have met and respect their skills. But they don't need you to blow any trumpets, and if you have read the threads, you will notice I comment on the role that the people have, not the people themselves.

And Nerula, yes, you are right about the perception and comments about Race Cafe, but you would be surprised who reads it. There is no other published vehicle available for the comments made on it. Good or bad.

Further, I am not the conveyer or convincer of any other persons views, other than my own. I just want people to think about the industry and the way it is governed, they can make up their own minds about that. But they do need the information, the correct information that is, to then make up their own mind. If they disagree with my view, that is fine, but they will have decided their position with more information than they were provided with at the start.

When 115 - 120 members of the NZTBA, of the 2200 available, respond to the President requesting their view and input, then that statistic alone, I believe, is a very embarrassing testimonial as to how many people care about the wellbeing of the industry they are supposedly interested and involved in.

But hey, I have had zzz respond, Dodgy and Nerula involved, Stig and Roughy commenting, so we have got some interest going.

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Apologies for intruding into the space of the cyber nutter and freaks show but could I just remind those with deficiencies, yes you John, that your hysterical arguments neglect to mention that

a) the One Race document was only for the thoroughbred code and was designed to test the waters, ascertain the level of support within our code for change, and then to give us a mandate to develop and all encompassing policy with which to petition and persuade the other two codes to join forces and go forward as one.

Secondly, the Board Works report was just a carcass design, the actual flesh on the policy was by virtue of a 7 member 'working committee', and oddly enough you'll recognise most members of that committee, and you'll find they represent a broad cross section of our industry.

1) Stiassny, love him or hate him he has done us no harm to date and has signalled a desire to evolve the administrative regime into something that emascualtes the RIB but empowers the individual codes.

2) Alistar Sutherland, very succesful careers in recruitment, liquor, and various international companies associated with financial and database management.

Still on multinational boards, races 31 horses in total and invests in various elements of bloodstock.

3) Kevin Kickman, Chairman Ryman Health, self made man, CHCH based but has significant investments in breeding stock and real estate in the Waikato, plus has interests in the harness code.

4) Patrick Hogan, apparently a breeder and stood a couple of horses called Sir Tristram and Zabbel or something.

Races 71 horses over 9 countries, breeds 280 of his own mares per annum and has sold over 240 million dollars of bloodstock in the last 18 years.

Also, oddly I'd have thought, is known to race trotters.

5) Kerry Hoggard, dep Chair Alexandra Park, some trotting joint I understand, head of Nufarm and also a HRNZ exec of note.

6) Guy Sargent. Of a farming background, made his money (by sending his wife to work) and importing embryos and semen, beef and deer. Pioneered embryo transplanting in deer actually through Dalstud. Significant investor in thoroughbreds over the years, much to his wifes dismay, and a full brother to one of our leading trainers.

Chairman of NZTR plus has various international affiliations with meat processing and manufacturing entities.

7) Bill Gianotti, President NZTM, ex Chairman ARC, substantial investor in IT and made his fortune in database management. Semi retired but on various boards in the 'city'.

Did I mention that all these chaps give unselfishly of their time and money to the industry, they all punt, race horses, drink piss, and they have all passed the greatest test of all, that being loyalty to the code and industry over a long period.

Now take note you whinging moaning lemon sucking nutters. If you want to say/proclaim/declare that there wasn't a balanced input into the policy you're lying, got that, you're just telling lies, pure unadulterated and fabricated lies, nothing more and nothing less, and the fact you have to resort to lies to substantiate your pathetic arguments says more about you than it ever will about One Race.

You forgot to mention zzz

Alistar Sutherland: was going to be voted off NZTR but got wind and resigned, now has axe to grind. Once he's 'empowered' wants to close 20 galloping tracks, wishes to sell off Counties and Waikato, don't believe me? Check with Herbie

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It seems to me that if you take the tri-code model as it was proposed in the governance review then everybody here is to a large extent on the same page. The review recommended integration of NZTR and the NZRB proposing the tri-code model but also saying that the thoroughbred code should integrate whether harness and greyhounds did or not. Regardless, the key outcomes of that were supposed to be the very things that I think you are saying John and others are also saying in terms of broad representation. The review concluded that:

6.2.1 Desired outcomes

Given the outcome of the consultation process and the analysis in this review report the

broad nature of the changes required is clear. What is required to take the industry forward is

a governance structure that is:

[align=left]

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..the illumination and levitation ..in your exclusive hovers is further defining racing stock as the public've always known them to be., . .recently, even furthermore so.

..enjoy the last year or two of the vaacuum and haven that's allowed you all to've become the club you have.

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I omitted in the above post, my view that the One Racing Taskforce recommendations, while conceding the objectives of the Review completely failed to address those 2 key elements which is why it didn't and should not succeed in its current form.

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