Complexity

[tackle 0]

This whole pokie machine debate is an incredibly complex one.

Some on here seem to want to use it to "bash" harness racing, others almost seem, rather bizzarely, to be opposed to any form of gambling.

The simple facts are: many clubs will cease to exist without pokies money; much of the money that has been received over the years has been wasted in exorbitant stakes levels and clubs will have nothing to show for it once the flow ceases; a decent portion of the money that goes into the pokies would in previous generations have gone through the TAB; Racing clubs have just as much claim on such money as professional sports bodies, even professional cultural bodies; the administration of such funds has undeniably been handled in a corrupt and often incompetent manner over the years, but racing in this respect is probably no worse than any other sports.

So, at the end of the day, what needs to be done?

Firstly we need to stop wasting time and effort arguing that trotting is more corrupt than galloping, and the dogs may be more corrupt than both. There also needs to be an acceptance that racing either needs fair access to such funds or else needs some form of protection from alternative forms of gaming. And there needs to be a system in place to ensure any funds Racing receives are distributed more fairly and utilised more competently.

The whole system and debate currently is a mess and the way things are progessing it is hard to see much good coming out of the whole debate.

I just thought I would mention this as so much effort currently seems to be going into arguing that "your lot is more corrupt than my lot".

[kopia 1]

This whole pokie machine debate is an incredibly complex one.

Some on here seem to want to use it to "bash" harness racing, others almost seem, rather bizzarely, to be opposed to any form of gambling.

The simple facts are: many clubs will cease to exist without pokies money]

Fair comment. You'll notice there is a deafening silence from the Govt. over this issue. Whoever the latest Racing Minister is had better have a plan B in place when the legislation proposed by the Maori Party becomes law. But he won't, it is becoming obvious the Govt is not interested.

[23Tank 33]

This whole pokie machine debate is an incredibly complex one.

Some on here seem to want to use it to "bash" harness racing, others almost seem, rather bizzarely, to be opposed to any form of gambling.

The simple facts are: many clubs will cease to exist without pokies money]

A balanced, rational post on the subject and you make some points I hadn't thought of before.

Be careful though you might get a yellow card if your lucky for inferring that it's not just a harness problem.

[foxy 0]

The government does incredibly well out of the pokies. They collect gaming duty on the turnover (10% I think) plus GST of 15% on turnover. Not a bad little earner for them, in these tough times.

[foxy 0]

Just had a look on the IRD website and gaming duty is 20% of profits. Plus GST. They are raking it in, no wonder they want 500 more machines at Sky City.

[tackle 0]

I'm not au fait with the history of the introduction of pokies, but why should Racing, a competitor to pokies receive access to funds and protection.

Genuine question, perhaps some kind soul could outline what happened when pokies were introduced and why Racing received funds from them

I can understand that all forms of public gambling must return a % to the community, by why to Racing.

Interesting questions Hesi.

The usual argument is that the racing industry contributes more to the country overall than other forms of gaming.

Everyone has seen the figures relating to employment within the racing industry, from club administrators, raceday staff, breeders, trainers, TAB employees etc, etc. Sure the pokies also employ people but not across so many trades.

It also earns overseas funds through the sale of horses.

In many small communities it provides the only sizable local venue for both indoor and outdoor events.

I also like to think the large crowds turning up to Kaikoura or Kumara provide more of a community feel good factor than thousands trying to jam into the local pokie venue.

The simple fact is that a significant portion of the money going through the pokies would previously have gone to the TAB. Sure, racing has no god given right to that money, but it has been more adversely affected by the pokies than rugby or the local bowling or golf club.

Previously gamblers money went to sustain the racing industry, which in some ways was a logical pattern of reinvestment. These days gamblers are sustaining the local golf club and various other activities whose members in many cases probably have never used a pokie machine in their lives.

Racing is also disadvantaged in that it has to pay money directly to the govt whereas the pokies can point to all the largesse they distribute around the community.

There is no set requirement that racing must receive money from the pokies, which you asked about, but it has just as much right to that money as most other community activities.

We need to be careful that the current debate about the obvious corruption within the pokies industry doesn't distract from the need to ensure a fairer distribution of funds.

Afterall, it is the pokies that are corrupt in the first place not racing. Racing has just benefitted from the corruption. Remember previously it was the likes of Rugby and Rugby League that benefitted from the corruption.

I am surprised at the suggestion from many within the industry that racing should turn its back on all pokies funding. It is just as entitled to funding as many of the other recipients.

Do you think it is more reasonable for some hack rugby player to be paid $50,000 to play in the domestic rugby competion for a couple of months with a few hundred people going along to watch, than for the local racing club to have a decent Cup Day and tidy up their 1950's era facilities so they can also be used for community events?

[talk 308]

I'm not au fait with the history of the introduction of pokies, but why should Racing, a competitor to pokies receive access to funds and protection.

Genuine question, perhaps some kind soul could outline what happened when pokies were introduced and why Racing received funds from them

I can understand that all forms of public gambling must return a % to the community, by why to Racing.

Hesi, the question of if/why the racing industry should receive access to pokie profits has been debated a lenghth on this site. I cannot help you because I fail to see one compelling reason in support of this practice.

Considering the attitude of our current politicians, international trends and the obscene way racing clubs (I use this term to cover all codes) have milked the system; time is nearly up and access to the money of the addicted will shortly expire. Time for racing clubs to change sides and advocate for a reduction in pokie machines which interestingly, as you say, was the industry's position prior to the introduction of pokies.

When Flavell's Bill is passed, and assumimg the racing industry by some miracle could use whatever influence they have left to have racing classified as a charitable organisation, what would be the chance of a council/community trust giving them a grant ahead of say Starship Hospital?

[talk 308]

Ka pai.

Thinking of this nature needs to come from the top of the industry. Have you sent in your CV?

[tasman man 742]

Talk your first paragraph has resonance.

If the pokie monies had been put to good use, in a manner that created jobs or infrastructural improvements that had penetration into the wider community, we wouldn't have this current problem, and nor would we have the sentiment of contempt felt towards racing in general by the 94% of people not interested in the game, a sentiment shaped in no small way by these rorts the Acklins and O'Briens seem to delight in wallowing in.

I'd suggest the proceeds of pokies could be used to fund a fabulous polytechnic, based anywhere but Avondale has the bones to make it work.

That polytechnic could have a strong Asian connection and the subjects or specialties would typically be animal related, dogs and horses.

The positive side of this would obviously be education, earnings from overseas students, qualifications of a tertiary nature, and most importantly a raft of graduates who would add value to the racing industries and the wider community.

It goes without saying that the skills and qualifications would have applications across all of society.

Now that's money well spent, as distinct from the fishing trips, pony clubs, boozy lunches, overseas junkets with Tish so we can slurp and slobber off the back of the vulnerable, the bonuses for touting, and of course the O'Briens alleged dodgy 'capture and reward' model which is nothing more than crude money laundering in reverse in that you take good club money and invest it with a skanky lawyer or finance company that loans you money back to buy a filthy pokie den, the pokie trust if that scummy hole then recycles money back to your club on a 'preferred' grants basis.

The polytechnic option smells of honest endeavor and reward, the Acklin/O'Brien model stinks of filth and corruption. You decide which is best.

.....that the 6% of pokies distribution that goes to the Racing Industry could build or maintain a Polytech .

If racing wiped out from our society ,the poor and vulnerable will still find addictions and leisure pursuits to waste their cash on.

Ditto if all pokies eliminated !!!

Internet gambling is gaining traction...I know a couple of very serious 'poker/card' players plus another whose 'job' it is to wage on the NBA online.

We all do.

As a sideline 'Pokies' made page 1 of our paper today.

They state the two trusts that have had licenses cancelled and question why they still operate.

The answer is the decision is being appealled.

One case is a neighbourhood pub where the locals fought to have pokies banned , and they thought they won.[9 machines]

The other is the much-mentioned case on here ,and that Trust operates 18 machines in area.

[tasman man 742]

.....refers to.....we all know people who wager on-line and run overseas accounts and bet with overseas outfits.

[talk 308]

.....that the 6% of pokies distribution that goes to the Racing Industry could build or maintain a Polytech .

It could work alright even without access to the pokie funds.

The ski club I belong to was on the verge of insolvency 5 years ago - literally had to send begging letters to members so that it could pay its creditors.

Today the skiing still runs at a loss however by concentrating marketing on making the facilities avaiable for education purposes - mountain safety training and high school biology, it is looking at a bank balance approaching seven figures. This is without funding from tertiary education authority that would be avaiable to an equine training facility.

[Nerula 1,403]

Yes and another Headline 400,000 diabetics most type 2 costing the country ! billion bucks pa soon.

Option 1 tax people to stop them eating crap at the source of the crap.

Option 2 Allow evolutionary natural selection to take place.

We can run around bleating at the unfairness? that these people are losers due to their rotten life choices but I dont.

I just believe we have a duty to instill life skills teaching into schools at a young age and break the cycle that way.

Bad choices by excesses in ingesting, imbibing, inhaling taking chances, gambling etc. are optional. It doesnt matter whether the profit has gone to McD's, Kirin, Rothmans or the trots down south it doesnt influence the losers.

[John Clydesdale 229]

The pokies are over 9 billion a year, so the obvious question is how did it get to that level. Legislation was lax in the introductory phase as legislators (Internal Affairs) could not see how the mushroom could grow, so there was and could be machines wherever. They have now put the pressure back on local councils to review that process. The Tax man is very happy, but they also know the disease is reaching epidemic proportions.

What needs to happen is a review and upgrade of the licensing of pokies (who, what, where), review of the distribution of revenue (who, what, where and why) and better management procedures and processes involved in that distribution (checks and balances and audits).

If racing meets the reviewed criteria, then it should be entitled to a grant the same as every other sports club that gains a grant. Rugby, League, cricket clubs are all under fiscal pressure, the same as racing clubs, so there should not be any differentiation between them. So long as they meet the criteria, which is what should be in the review.

Better education and management surrounding the environment of pokies and their users is also a must, but that is also the most difficult to achieve. The pubs, clubs that play host to the slots are just as keen on the profits as the tax man.

What odds are being offered that T Flavell's bill will or won't get through?? About the same as Hone being Prime Minister one day I should think!

[talk 308]

John, since the only MP's to vote against the Bill on it's first reading were all from NZ First I would be very surprised if the Bill was not passed. The question is what will the Bill contain when it is eventually law.

Chances are it will be a conscience vote although under MMP, parliament seems to be more partisan than ever on issues of sin. Accordingly for the Bill to survive in something like it's present form Mr Flavell will need the support of the Maori Party's coalition partner National. Given the generosity(spew) of SkyCity National's support will be likely IMO.

What would be your problem with Hone as PM?