New Hawkes Bay Racetrack A Good Idea Or Bad Idea

[scooby3051]

See the survey below and then answer the poll question please...cheers....as many answers from members as we can as this is an important issue for the industry.

CCF_001591.pdf

[Leggy]

Is this all the information that members have been given to inform their vote? Surely not. There must be more detail especially about funding which seems very broad and vague in that document.

[scooby3051]

It needs to be done to keep HB racing alive BUT who will manage the project to ensure it remains on budget and on time, and not another Awapuni stuff up...that would be my biggest worry.

[Pam Robson]

Looks a bit pie-in-the-sky for me.

74 mill from NZTR/HBR?

[nomates]

NZ racing is in shrinkage mode and they want to build a new track that is 3 hours from anywhere , with sparkling training facilities , for who FFS ???  They don't even know what numbers will be like in 5 years far less 10 .

And now NZTR want 7hectares for residential properties , so now our head body wants to become developers , again FFS , haven't they learnt from others how hard this can be .

NZTR stick to your core job .

I got that from a quick scan over of the proposal , I don't know if I can be bothered with reading it in depth , as Leggy said , information is scant .

Jesus can't we just try and fix the shite we're in currently before running naked through the Greenfields with airy fairy , big talking projects .

I swear we are the dumbest industry .

I'm going for a walk to get some fresh air and chill .

[Tesio]

Is HB really the right location for a sparkling 74mil / blow out to 85mil new toy. As Nomates mentioned, industry is shrinking and I do question the level of spend for that location. How are they going to attract trainers, they are likely to lose trainers once the Waikato greenfields gets developed. 

[Arkham]

29 minutes ago, nomates said:

NZ racing is in shrinkage mode and they want to build a new track that is 3 hours from anywhere , with sparkling training facilities , for who FFS ???  They don't even know what numbers will be like in 5 years far less 10 .

And now NZTR want 7hectares for residential properties , so now our head body wants to become developers , again FFS , haven't they learnt from others how hard this can be .

NZTR stick to your core job .

I got that from a quick scan over of the proposal , I don't know if I can be bothered with reading it in depth , as Leggy said , information is scant .

Jesus can't we just try and fix the shite we're in currently before running naked through the Greenfields with airy fairy , big talking projects .

I swear we are the dumbest industry .

I'm going for a walk to get some fresh air and chill .

Agree 100%   There are two trainers left in HB who will be retired before this dumb idea even gets off the ground.  Foal crop numbers are way down and you don't go building more shelves when there is going to be less stock to put on them.  The Industry needs to Centralise and rationalise and invest in tracks close to the major training centres and horse population.  Not a ten hour round trip away. 

[scooby3051]

So how to centralize ??? Awapuni,Ellerslie,and ???? In the north and Riccarton and ???? where in the south. And that would mean centralizing training centers too???

[We're Doomed]

Interesting stuff. All sounds very aspirational. Probably a good idea if all of the figures are accurate, but the whole thing is predicated on several rather suspect assumptions.

"About $50m" for the current land sounds a bit vague. If they only get $43m that leaves a big hole.

The first item under how will they earn extra income is extra income from training fees. That is probably a brave assumption in the current environment.

Under how the community will benefit, the first item is a new events and entertainment centre. I had a vague idea they weren't planning much in the way of flash grandstands so I'm not sure what form the new events centre will take. Perhaps they will take advice from RACE on building a successful conference centre.

It would have been interesting to see the proposed layout of the new track and associated facilities. I see the track will be 1,890m so they must have lots of drawings. I quite like chutes. I wonder if they will have any. I wonder if they have based the layout on any existing tracks?

I see NZTR is to become a property developer. Presumably they will get some advice from the Auckland trots.

[Farnarkler]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

NZ racing is in shrinkage mode and they want to build a new track that is 3 hours from anywhere , with sparkling training facilities , for who FFS ???  They don't even know what numbers will be like in 5 years far less 10 .

And now NZTR want 7hectares for residential properties , so now our head body wants to become developers , again FFS , haven't they learnt from others how hard this can be .

NZTR stick to your core job .

I got that from a quick scan over of the proposal , I don't know if I can be bothered with reading it in depth , as Leggy said , information is scant .

Jesus can't we just try and fix the shite we're in currently before running naked through the Greenfields with airy fairy , big talking projects .

I swear we are the dumbest industry .

I'm going for a walk to get some fresh air and chill .

You mention Jesus, neither he, nor Mohamed could help HBJC, besides Mohamed doesn't bet, that we know of as sure as hell Sportsbet or NZTAB aren't going to rat on him if he had a burner account.

To invest in a new track considering the malaise of the industry and economics in general is sheer madness, although this mob are good at doing madness.

Has anyone paid a horse transport company recently? with Hastings being a 3 hour drive from humanity you need a second job packing shelves at New World just to pay the travel for your steed.

Great history HBJC, good solid foundations, BUT the world has changed, if they don't wake up and smell the roses soon it's all over rover.

Ellerslie has the population and yet they can't pull a ''real crowd'' good racing surface yes but its recent fields have been on the smallish side, so ROI through the wagering will be their electric chair in years to come.

NZTR throw other peoples money around like confetti, if they were accountable to a board of governance whoa betide them, but it's now a culture in Cambridge and unless there is a massive turnaround then the ending is inevitable and HBJC committee should be on notice.......but from whom?

[chiknsmack]

1 hour ago, Pam Robson said:

Looks a bit pie-in-the-sky for me.

74 mill from NZTR/HBR?

77.4m. 50m from HBRI swapping the current track for the empty land, 20m from the government as an interest-free loan as a thank you for freeing up the current track for housing (with two 10m repayments in years 10 & 20 underwritten by NZTR in exchange for HBRI giving NZTR a bit of the empty land to build houses on), 7.4m from HBRI selling a couple of other properties they have and NZTR covering any shortfall between the 7.4m and what they sell for.

50 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Is HB really the right location for a sparkling 74mil / blow out to 85mil new toy. As Nomates mentioned, industry is shrinking and I do question the level of spend for that location. How are they going to attract trainers, they are likely to lose trainers once the Waikato greenfields gets developed. 

HB will be done before the Waikato greenfields. I'd say there's a good chance HB will gain trainers from the Waikato when it's a brand-new top-of-the-line facility and the Waikato is a building site or bun fight. We also know that HB is the best place in the North Island to be training/racing in the spring if you want good tracks, so I wouldn't be surprised to see northern stables set up HB satellites in the same way Te Akau have set up a SI satellite.

HB is also provincial/agricultural enough to have a pro-racing culture long into the future in a way that Auckland and Wellington aren't, so it's better than putting all the eggs in the Ellerslie basket.

Also, Awapuni is FUBAR and RACE is skint. There's a bunch of trainers there who could move to the sunny Hawkes Bay and an obvious need for a CD track to replace the soon-to-be-houses Awapuni and Trentham (yes, Foxton/Levin/Woodville/Waipuk may be part of the answer, but none of them are Group 1/metro venues with the population of Napier/Hastings on their doorstep).

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Tesio said:

Is HB really the right location for a sparkling 74mil / blow out to 85mil new toy. As Nomates mentioned, industry is shrinking and I do question the level of spend for that location. How are they going to attract trainers, they are likely to lose trainers once the Waikato greenfields gets developed. 

 

1 hour ago, Tesio said:

Is HB really the right location for a sparkling 74mil / blow out to 85mil new toy. As Nomates mentioned, industry is shrinking and I do question the level of spend for that location. How are they going to attract trainers, they are likely to lose trainers once the Waikato greenfields gets developed. 

Well didn't you know that new trainers are falling out of the trees , horses are simply coming off conveyor belts in their thousands .

Awapuni spruiked that they would 400 trained there with the new track , well they might be lucky if they have any left after this latest shitshow .

[nomates]

14 minutes ago, Farnarkler said:

You mention Jesus, neither he, nor Mohamed could help HBJC, besides Mohamed doesn't bet, that we know of as sure as hell Sportsbet or NZTAB aren't going to rat on him if he had a burner account.

To invest in a new track considering the malaise of the industry and economics in general is sheer madness, although this mob are good at doing madness.

Has anyone paid a horse transport company recently? with Hastings being a 3 hour drive from humanity you need a second job packing shelves at New World just to pay the travel for your steed.

Great history HBJC, good solid foundations, BUT the world has changed, if they don't wake up and smell the roses soon it's all over rover.

Ellerslie has the population and yet they can't pull a ''real crowd'' good racing surface yes but its recent fields have been on the smallish side, so ROI through the wagering will be their electric chair in years to come.

NZTR throw other peoples money around like confetti, if they were accountable to a board of governance whoa betide them, but it's now a culture in Cambridge and unless there is a massive turnaround then the ending is inevitable and HBJC committee should be on notice.......but from whom?

Well as I stated last week , Awapuni , Trentham , New Plymouth and Hastings , these are the CD's Crown Jewels .

Says everything there needs to be said about those charged with running our industry , I would suggest they need a real dose of reality but when the fairy mother keeps them stoned with shimmering glitter there is no hope of knocking sense into them .

[nomates]

33 minutes ago, chiknsmack said:

. I'd say there's a good chance HB will gain trainers from the Waikato when it's a brand-new top-of-the-line facility

You might be right but personally I couldn't see one trainer relocate there from the north , not with Ellerslie on their doorstep .

Maybe , and a big maybe , some might send some down for the spring but that isn't enough to be building it on , some already send teams to Ruakaka , which is probably better than Hastings for climate , so if they aren't doing that now can't see why in the future .

How much longer do Lowry and Bary stay on with big teams , if they even have the numbers they used to .

So many if's and buts .

10 years away , look back on 10 years ago and look at the changes since then in trainer , horse and owner numbers in the CD .

I'd like to see something more concrete before pouring so much into it .

[Tauhei Notts]

I have never visited the Waipukurau track, but I saw, on Tv, the fun crowd they had there a few weeks ago.

I think a few dollars poured in there would be a better spend than a new track in Hastings.

[meomy]

Meanwhile it's been announced this week that the Government propose to review Regional Governance - stay awake at the wheel Racing participants.

Alas they only go back to 1989 changes...when it was the swallowing up of Little Borough and County Council's and local communities knowledge that has created the problems we all are bearing the brunt of.

The issues this country and Racing is facing go back to prior to 1989.

 

Make sure you all have your say how you want your local communities governed BC there's a Water Wheel at the helm in Central Government.

 

[Farnarkler]

2 hours ago, chiknsmack said:

77.4m. 50m from HBRI swapping the current track for the empty land, 20m from the government as an interest-free loan as a thank you for freeing up the current track for housing (with two 10m repayments in years 10 & 20 underwritten by NZTR in exchange for HBRI giving NZTR a bit of the empty land to build houses on), 7.4m from HBRI selling a couple of other properties they have and NZTR covering any shortfall between the 7.4m and what they sell for.

HB will be done before the Waikato greenfields. I'd say there's a good chance HB will gain trainers from the Waikato when it's a brand-new top-of-the-line facility and the Waikato is a building site or bun fight. We also know that HB is the best place in the North Island to be training/racing in the spring if you want good tracks, so I wouldn't be surprised to see northern stables set up HB satellites in the same way Te Akau have set up a SI satellite.

HB is also provincial/agricultural enough to have a pro-racing culture long into the future in a way that Auckland and Wellington aren't, so it's better than putting all the eggs in the Ellerslie basket.

Also, Awapuni is FUBAR and RACE is skint. There's a bunch of trainers there who could move to the sunny Hawkes Bay and an obvious need for a CD track to replace the soon-to-be-houses Awapuni and Trentham (yes, Foxton/Levin/Woodville/Waipuk may be part of the answer, but none of them are Group 1/metro venues with the population of Napier/Hastings on their doorstep).

With respect, trainers running satellite stables in HB?........hell will freeze over before that happens, and who can afford to uproot from say Awapuni/Otaki etc and relocate to Hastings? Many have running mortgages and kids in schools, family ties etc etc......just not going to happen.

Whilst Awapuni will resemble Death Valley shortly they would be wiser to petition the Asylum to improve the facilities at Levin and Foxton, two gems the Asylum does their best to ignore or snub, with costs across the board increasing at light speed it would be business savvy and prudent to invest in far more tangible exercises than a Greenfield's project up in the never never, with apologies to the HB dwellers.

Start by sacking Trentham, sell it off while there are cashed up developers about, sack the hapless, hopeless WRC board, and inject the funds into revitalising Otaki, Levin and Foxton.

What's needed basically are people with both racing and business nouse, not those that are pushing their own barrows and agendas at the moment, and we all know who they are, but a younger, invigorated and inspired demographic, in the Brendon McCullum mould, but not limited to.

Having said all that, as in the past and is proven, no way will the incumbents at the House of Horrors  AKA NZTR Cambridge listen to any advice or suggestion thrown their way unless it originates from their own little bubble.........sadly.

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Farnarkler said:

With respect, trainers running satellite stables in HB?........hell will freeze over before that happens, and who can afford to uproot from say Awapuni/Otaki etc and relocate to Hastings? Many have running mortgages and kids in schools, family ties etc etc......just not going to happen.

Whilst Awapuni will resemble Death Valley shortly they would be wiser to petition the Asylum to improve the facilities at Levin and Foxton, two gems the Asylum does their best to ignore or snub, with costs across the board increasing at light speed it would be business savvy and prudent to invest in far more tangible exercises than a Greenfield's project up in the never never, with apologies to the HB dwellers.

Start by sacking Trentham, sell it off while there are cashed up developers about, sack the hapless, hopeless WRC board, and inject the funds into revitalising Otaki, Levin and Foxton.

What's needed basically are people with both racing and business nouse, not those that are pushing their own barrows and agendas at the moment, and we all know who they are, but a younger, invigorated and inspired demographic, in the Brendon McCullum mould, but not limited to.

Having said all that, as in the past and is proven, no way will the incumbents at the House of Horrors  AKA NZTR Cambridge listen to any advice or suggestion thrown their way unless it originates from their own little bubble.........sadly.

I was actually thinking along similar lines , Awapuni and Trentham would be sold to help fund any future upgrades . 

I have promoted a Greenfields north of Foxton for years but doesn't look like there is much fervor for it , so I was thinking about tracks in the CD that could work with some investment and the two I thought of were , Otaki and Woodville , both have had district roading upgrades that facilitate easy access , both have tracks that have surplus land around each that could be set up for trainers . I think the old Marsh property is still sitting there unused at Woodville , and Otaki has the old Ashurst Park facility that could possibly be bought and set up for multiple training setups .

I know that they are 2 tracks that I have been to regularly over the years and the tracks provide even racing , both could possibly need some work done to handle more racing and both would require upgraded facilities , but I could see both working , especially with the improved roading .

Levin would require far more work , both on the track and facilities , but I would leave alone as it serves the industry great as is .

Foxton also could be brought on line , wouldn't take much , again the facilities would require upgrading but as with Otaki and Woodville , they also garner good public support on race day as a rule .

That would give the CD Hastings , Otaki and Woodville carrying most of any black type racing , being supported by Waipuk , New Plymouth , Wanganui and Foxton for most of the industry days and their own cup days etc .

These ideas won't keep everybody happy but fiscally I think they serve the CD industry far better .

And they are just ideas but I genuinely believe discussions like this should be being held by those at NZTR , they might not be the final solve but could be the start of a template for moving forward . 

 

[We're Doomed]

Does anyone know how many members HB has? I see it is the members who vote and make the big decision, much like Rosehill, but if they only have about 20 members that is a lot of power in the hands of a few people. 

[Farnarkler]

17 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Does anyone know how many members HB has? I see it is the members who vote and make the big decision, much like Rosehill, but if they only have about 20 members that is a lot of power in the hands of a few people. 

And wouldn't that be dangerous.

[bloke]

Before they have any meeting to vote they need to firstly have an unconditional contract to sell the existing racecourse and surrounding property for $50M. They will also then will require an unconditional contact to have the so-called turnkey development completed within budget. Until they have these there should be no vote.

If they vote without these safeguards, it will be Awapuni and Alexandra Park re visited

[BUCKY]

This scheme looks like the result of the President and Committee of HB Racing had a monumental piss up and then had a competition between themselves to come up with the dumbest idea....sorry guys, these dreams expired back in the 1950's and 60's when racing was right up there with rugby as a crowd puller. Why? Because there wasnt any trackside, you had to be on course for many bet types, and the TAB's were usually some type of dungeon down an alleyway.

You're dreaming if you think trainers will suddenly decide to relocate, same with jockeys and track riders.

I've won races as an owner/breeder at Hastings during the Spring carnival when it was packed. Terrific atmosphere. But..but it's over guys. Accept it, don't think of wasting $millions on your own dreams.....

[Dissident]

I don't know. I think the proposal as attached needs more work: more proven/reliable revenue sources. And for loans to be provided I would have thought one of the conditions would be a proven track record of successfully delivering projects of this scale and type, or for it to be delivered by a group that holds those skills. Big ? Currently. I was all for the idea until seeing how few trainers are there currently, that is a concern to me, especially with this still being years away realistically. You surely won't encourage many new ones until the new track is there especially with what has happened at Awapuni. If you encourage trainers to base their horses there how do you have concerts at the same venue without upsetting said horses? As much as Hawkes Bay traditionally provides a great surface in spring, with the region typically having a much dryer spring than Waikato etc, is that enough justification for it? Geographically I think the location is strong, being somewhere both CD and Waikato horses could reasonably travel to, to support strong entries. Anything being conditional on the developer being at a certain stage, if that is the case is a risk. Developers are skilled at de-risking, that can mean the other party can carry more risk especially if less experienced with these types of deals. Whole thing seems medium to high risk as it stands?

[We're Doomed]

The major thing I can see in favour of the proposal is that it is much better to sell off the existing track as one entity and start afresh elsewhere rather than the piecemeal selling off of bits of land like we have seen at Trentham, which is incredibly depressing and surely not cost effective.

[Ranger]

4 hours ago, nomates said:

I was actually thinking along similar lines , Awapuni and Trentham would be sold to help fund any future upgrades . 

I have promoted a Greenfields north of Foxton for years but doesn't look like there is much fervor for it , so I was thinking about tracks in the CD that could work with some investment and the two I thought of were , Otaki and Woodville , both have had district roading upgrades that facilitate easy access , both have tracks that have surplus land around each that could be set up for trainers . I think the old Marsh property is still sitting there unused at Woodville , and Otaki has the old Ashurst Park facility that could possibly be bought and set up for multiple training setups .

I know that they are 2 tracks that I have been to regularly over the years and the tracks provide even racing , both could possibly need some work done to handle more racing and both would require upgraded facilities , but I could see both working , especially with the improved roading .

Levin would require far more work , both on the track and facilities , but I would leave alone as it serves the industry great as is .

Foxton also could be brought on line , wouldn't take much , again the facilities would require upgrading but as with Otaki and Woodville , they also garner good public support on race day as a rule .

That would give the CD Hastings , Otaki and Woodville carrying most of any black type racing , being supported by Waipuk , New Plymouth , Wanganui and Foxton for most of the industry days and their own cup days etc .

These ideas won't keep everybody happy but fiscally I think they serve the CD industry far better .

And they are just ideas but I genuinely believe discussions like this should be being held by those at NZTR , they might not be the final solve but could be the start of a template for moving forward . 

 

Foxton is an underutilised track - on a lot of land. Facilities would need some work, however a lot of clubs use those large marquees successfully on raceday. Woodville has had increased support since the new road went through, the facilities are all there and the track handles a lot of rain.