The Issues : Part 1 , Venues

[nomates]

Ok finally going to get this going . I will put up a new thread every few days as the old one tires with different discussion topics . But please , this is just a discussion , no right or wrong , just asking people to offer ideas and possible solutions to some of the issues that are plaguing the industry presently . So please everybody play nice .

I have started with venues because as a couple of posters have expressed I suppose we need to know where we are going to be racing and the structure around that going into the next few years and beyond .

So for what it's worth I'll say my piece and thoughts to begin .

I'll start by saying that I believe that things are a fait accompli as far as the powers are concerned , more so after the "Project Stamina" release last week . I think they have a mindset and are determined to follow it , and the consultant is purely to appease .

I have said for a long time that going forward the majority of relevant racing is going to be north of the Taupo , and that now makes sense as the vast majority of horses are there , the fact that decision making has allowed this drift to occur doesn't change the fact that it has happened and changing that would be a major undertaking .

So where does that leave the 3 separate regions , the SI , CD and the northern region . Personally I believe that outside of the 2 Riccarton "Carnivals" , and I use that term loosely , they look at SI racing as a backwater , and will just leave the SI to die a slow death or at best meander along . Others will have stronger views and much more to add on the region .

As for the north , well we have Ellerslie and I believe with the PS release last week they will now push hard for the Greenfields project so that eventually between those 2 tracks the vast majority of "relevant" racing takes place on them . Where that leaves other tracks in the minds of the big boys I have know idea . It would be a shame to lose tracks like Matamata , Pukekohe and Tauranga for racing . I genuinely believe we are heading for a Honk Kong situation in the future , might be 20/30 years away , but other factors like horse numbers will probably dictate that .

Now for the CD , an area that is very much in my heart and has been for 50+ years , what a "clusterfuck". The 4 tracks that were labeled premier tracks for the region , Trentham , Awapuni , Hastings and New Plymouth are as close to lame ducks as you can get , I just hope that those that picked this direction don't bet .

I have advocated for a decade or more that Awapuni and Trentham should have been sold and a future proof mega racing and training center north of Foxton be build , with satellite training and trialing centers at Levin and Foxton , well that ain't happening , they are all in on Awapuni . If it was going to happen they wouldn't have invested the time and money they have , so it's going no where .

Hastings? who knows , they don't .

So onto Trentham and NP , both are hanging on for dear life , neither have a public stand anymore and the costs of building at both would be prohibitive . Add to that the NP track is in council ownership and they are still looking at the possibility of taking it back for the community , so is there realistically any point in pouring any money into it and I'm not sold on the track surface , a lot of work required on it , and Trentham has basically sold everything they can and the track that I grew at and had so many fantastic times on just looks like an old punch drunk boxer who doesn't know when to quit , and I know that will upset some but I assure those people it breaks my heart to see Trentham like that .

So out of those 3 only Awapuni seems to have a certain future . So does the CD work with just Awapuni for it's major racing with a couple of satellites such as Otaki and Hastings if it sorts itself out ?.

As I have said IMO they should have sold up all the metropolitan tracks and built future proof state of the art facilities on the outskirts of Auckland , CHCH and north of Foxton , but that is definitely not happening . 

I am so disillusioned with racing I now very rarely go to the races , even to see my horses run . 

I haven't covered everything In my head , I'm sure as discussion happens I will add more . 

Who knows maybe they will surprise us .

So please add your thoughts .

 

 

[TurnyTom]

70% north if Taupo

20% Taupō south rest of NI

10% SI

Guinea's races to Auckland, as will Winter Cup to Trentham and Grand Nationals to Te Rapa.

SI retain Cup Week for once a year racegoers mainly to support Harness week, with NZ Cup the centrepiece for SI  racing

New grass mounds at CJC for Cup week attendees with proposed shelved given low attendances

Not as far fetched as it seems, most very likely to happen with SI leadership so poorly lacking

[nomates]

4 minutes ago, TurnyTom said:

70% north if Taupo

20% Taupō south rest of NI

10% SI

Guinea's races to Auckland, as will Winter Cup to Trentham and Grand Nationals to Te Rapa.

SI retain Cup Week for once a year racegoers mainly to support Harness week, with NZ Cup the centrepiece for SI  racing

New grass mounds at CJC for Cup week attendees with proposed shelved given low attendances

Not as far fetched as it seems, most very likely to happen with SI leadership so poorly lacking

I can see a lot of that happening , the worry is with so much BT and big money races whose travelling even to the CD with their best horses . They will make sure the really big money stays north .

[nomates]

40 minutes ago, TurnyTom said:

70% north if Taupo

20% Taupō south rest of NI

10% SI

Guinea's races to Auckland, as will Winter Cup to Trentham and Grand Nationals to Te Rapa.

SI retain Cup Week for once a year racegoers mainly to support Harness week, with NZ Cup the centrepiece for SI  racing

New grass mounds at CJC for Cup week attendees with proposed shelved given low attendances

Not as far fetched as it seems, most very likely to happen with SI leadership so poorly lacking

The other side of that equation TT is what state is the racing in the CD and SI , what are the stakes etc , if your an owner are you going to race a horse there , if yes the it's not on a decent scale .

Even now I'm in the CD but my horses are in the north .

[scooby3051]

Good coverage NM. My two cents worth to add is I think that Hastings will get a lifeline as it is the only reasonable spring surface for the triple crown and unless it all gets moved to Ellerslie I dont really think there is another option Awapuni is too wet and weather is awful in the spring and none of the good horses would travel to trentham.

As for the smaller feeder tracks for the CD

Waverly seems to be in the mix and also Hawera as they spent money on irrigation there at those venues.

Foxton is absolutely needed at a minimum for trials and levin jump outs are always run with huge numbers so close that what does it achieve it costs the NZTR nothing as it is but both are a huge asset to the owners and trainers who need them to get educated horses to the races, isn't that the goal??

I agree there will be a huge push for north of Taupo, its already started, but if they close places like Matamata they will lose even more of the country folk and farming communities that have been lost over the last few years.

If the Guineas stay at Riccarton for two more seasons it will be surprising, they have not had decent fields to retain their status for years.

[scootering]

I agree with all the above  comments,  but what about  oncourse   ? Nice to have Carnivals, reduction in tracks, prizemoney  to boost, but if your not going to watch your horse run,  why?

[Ohokaman]

44 minutes ago, TurnyTom said:

70% north if Taupo

20% Taupō south rest of NI

10% SI

Guinea's races to Auckland, as will Winter Cup to Trentham and Grand Nationals to Te Rapa.

SI retain Cup Week for once a year racegoers mainly to support Harness week, with NZ Cup the centrepiece for SI  racing

New grass mounds at CJC for Cup week attendees with proposed shelved given low attendances

Not as far fetched as it seems, most very likely to happen with SI leadership so poorly lacking

True Tom. Given the association/partnership now with Thoroughbreds and Harness, it will be interesting to see whether the latter management have the balls to push for a fairer share for the South…that is where the strength of harness racing is and it would be a damn shame if tracks like Motukarara, Kaikoura and a few others south of Christchurch go by the wayside.

Riccarton will be ok with the money already spent on the synthetic track, so you would expect decent support there, and it needs it because outside of Cup Week it offers very little, and a change to forward thinking management wouldn’t go amiss either.

Auckland will clearly be the centrepiece in the NI, but they need to carefully consider some of the regional tracks ( look how Ruakaka performed after that deluge in the North…would have been called off anywhere else, like Hawera was ) and what they can offer to local populations ..Te Rapa, Hastings and Matamata for instance.

The CD is a dead duck for mine and can’t for the life of me understand  the Awapuni situation. Trentham not far behind.

[nomates]

20 minutes ago, scootering said:

I agree with all the above  comments,  but what about  oncourse   ? Nice to have Carnivals, reduction in tracks, prizemoney  to boost, but if your not going to watch your horse run,  why?

I think Carnivals in NZ are dead , especially the GN and Cup week at Riccarton , and the Wellington Cup carnival has been butchered beyond recognition .

We are much better to have stand alone "Iconic" days , these can be run every 2/3 weeks and maybe shared around a little .

The shrinkage in our racing isn't noticeable year on year but if you look at things 5 years then 10 years apart you can see how much things have retracted . 

[scooby3051]

I hope many members will participate in these threads the more input the better.

[elo]

Nomates - if you have a good look at your beloved Trentham - they have sold all the land for housing down to the stables and tieups. They now have spare land where the old public stand was ... so how many houses could they build where the stables and barn are now?? - Float parking with a few tieups where the old public stand was..

 

what do you think???

 

 

 

 

[Zakhu]

I do think there needs to be more racing at Riccarton on the turf throughout the Winter months in the leadup to National week. They should be racing there this Saturday or last as a leadup to the Winter Cup.

[Zakhu]

I think it is great to see the return of Waipukurau later this year, hopefully they can get more meetings in the seasons to come. A good track with a generous length of home straight.

[nomates]

8 minutes ago, elo said:

Nomates - if you have a good look at your beloved Trentham - they have sold all the land for housing down to the stables and tieups. They now have spare land where the old public stand was ... so how many houses could they build where the stables and barn are now?? - Float parking with a few tieups where the old public stand was..

 

what do you think???

 

 

 

 

I would love if they could do something with it but I just can't see what , isn't there something happening with more housing but it all seems a bit secret squirrel . TBH it just looks like a bomb site , and isn't there issues with the members , what happens if that needs work .

Breaks my heart what has been allowed to happen .

[nomates]

Just now, Zakhu said:

I think it is great to see the return of Waipukurau later this year, hopefully they can get more meetings in the seasons to come. A good track with a generous length of home straight.

They will get what their given till they are no longer required , always enjoyed going there and always seemed to draw a good crowd .

[Ripples]

For mine I disagree that Cup week in Christchurch is a goner in fact of all the Carnivals it is a success story, both Harness meetings on Tuesday and Friday attract good crowds and great betting races and  a significant number of Australian visitors and Cup Day at Riccarton attracts massive crowds with sometimes the sold out sign up. The week itself provides a massive boost to the Christchurch economy and will be here for decades to come. Auckland has tried to replicate Chch with its own Cup carnival but it just hasn’t worked.  I should also add that Addington is the spiritual home in NZ for Harness Racing and that won’t change in my lifetime.

I do agree that Ellerslie will be the racing  base for majority of our elite thoroughbreds. Their stakes are way above what any other Clubs can provide and their facilities particularly for the public are second to none. They are fortunate in being able to sell off some of their prime real estate along Ascot Avenue and Ladies mile which has provided ATR with an excellent financial base   

Personally Im saddened at the demise of many of our country race tracks, I still cannot understand the rationale  for closing tracks that are  financially sustainable, particularly on East Coast North Island. One of the things I loved about NZ racing was the variety provided by our country racing not just from a punting perspective but visual as well

[Ohokaman]

18 minutes ago, Ripples said:

For mine I disagree that Cup week in Christchurch is a goner in fact of all the Carnivals it is a success story, both Harness meetings on Tuesday and Friday attract good crowds and great betting races and  a significant number of Australian visitors and Cup Day at Riccarton attracts massive crowds with sometimes the sold out sign up. The week itself provides a massive boost to the Christchurch economy and will be here for decades to come. Auckland has tried to replicate Chch with its own Cup carnival but it just hasn’t worked.  I should also add that Addington is the spiritual home in NZ for Harness Racing and that won’t change in my lifetime.

I do agree that Ellerslie will be the racing  base for majority of our elite thoroughbreds. Their stakes are way above what any other Clubs can provide and their facilities particularly for the public are second to none. They are fortunate in being able to sell off some of their prime real estate along Ascot Avenue and Ladies mile which has provided ATR with an excellent financial base   

Personally Im saddened at the demise of many of our country race tracks, I still cannot understand the rationale  for closing tracks that are  financially sustainable, particularly on East Coast North Island. One of the things I loved about NZ racing was the variety provided by our country racing not just from a punting perspective but visual as well

The Auckland Cup Carnival was a great success for many years until Weaver and Co decided in their wisdom to move the Cup from New Years Day to March.The ATC then followed suit despite everyone telling them it was a mistake.

The Carnival  ( New Years Eve/ New Years Day ) worked because everyone knew the dates. It fitted in to holiday plans and people used to come from all over ( particularly the South Island ) for both events. Moving them lost that following.

[TARANTULA]

VENUES.

PROJECT STAMINA.   RACING CODES TO UNITE TO SHAPE THE FUTURE OF NZ RACING INFRASTRUCTURE .MASTER PLAN………

THOROUGHBREDS MOVING NORTH.HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO.Finances,Horse numbers,Fields,Stakes,Venues,PUNTING……

HARNESS MOVING SOUTH.HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO.Finances,Horse numbers,Fields,PUNTING,Venues,Breeders……

“SOME PEOPLE”SAY RACING IN GENERAL IS HEADING SOUTH BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT south.

 

 

IS THIS OUR “LAST CHANCE SALOON”  FOR OUR GREAT INDUSTRY.   WE ALL HOPE NOT.

 

Nomates……..Thank you very much for starting this discussion.Looking forward to replys regarding VENUES ………,infrastructure,finances,horse numbers,fields,stakes,breeding,punting,all participants,governance,etc.

Who needs consultants when we have ALL PARTICIPANTS engaged.

       Ok maybe to tidy up a few finer points.

[TurnyTom]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

I think Carnivals in NZ are dead , especially the GN and Cup week at Riccarton , and the Wellington Cup carnival has been butchered beyond recognition .

We are much better to have stand alone "Iconic" days , these can be run every 2/3 weeks and maybe shared around a little .

The shrinkage in our racing isn't noticeable year on year but if you look at things 5 years then 10 years apart you can see how much things have retracted . 

Agree Wellington have kicked their Cup carnival into touch

Think Christchurch will stay strong, particularly, likely solely, for Harness. CJC are an also ran in protecting their patch, have few ideas and once the Guinea’s go it is over, and I have little doubt the Guinea’s gone within 3 years

As a true Cantab very sad seeing this unfold and suspect we can’t save it now, poor leadership sole cause

[Tesio]

2nd biggest City in NZ - Christchurch

Highest average starters per race - South Island

Best Carnival in NZ - Cup Week Christchurch 

It’s delusional to think NZ racing has to be above TAUPO.  

Just imagine what could happen with refreshed management at Riccarton and some effort to grow racing in the area and greater South Island.

The default thought process of racing can only survive above TAUPO is a Ponzi scheme. 

[Leggy]

56 minutes ago, TurnyTom said:

 CJC are an also ran in protecting their patch, have few ideas and once the Guinea’s go it is over, and I have little doubt the Guinea’s gone within 3 years

That will leave the SI without a single G1 or G2 race won't it?

[gubellini]

Within the next decade most racing in the north will be at Ellerslie or the proposed new Waikato Racing Hub. I fear for all other clubs in the north.

[scooby3051]

15 minutes ago, Tesio said:

2nd biggest City in NZ - Christchurch

Highest average starters per race - South Island

Best Carnival in NZ - Cup Week Christchurch 

It’s delusional to think NZ racing has to be above TAUPO.  

Just imagine what could happen with refreshed management at Riccarton and some effort to grow racing in the area and greater South Island.

The default thought process of racing can only survive above TAUPO is a Ponzi scheme. 

But how to effect that change???TM seems to never want to leave.

[nomates]

31 minutes ago, Tesio said:

2nd biggest City in NZ - Christchurch

Highest average starters per race - South Island

Best Carnival in NZ - Cup Week Christchurch 

It’s delusional to think NZ racing has to be above TAUPO.  

Just imagine what could happen with refreshed management at Riccarton and some effort to grow racing in the area and greater South Island.

The default thought process of racing can only survive above TAUPO is a Ponzi scheme. 

My point around cup week is to do with the quality of the gallops side of things . The pressure is on for the GNS to move north , the majority of the field is from the northern region and it is only a matter of time till it happens , and they are the only races that keep the quality of the whole meeting up . The NZ Cup is just another race now .

If you look at the number of NI trainers that bring a substantial team to either of the CHCH carnivals it is very small compared to a few years ago , even the couple of bigger stables that still bring more than a couple their numbers have reduced , from what I've seen the majority of the fields are now made up of southerners . 

As a social occasion it may well keep doing its thing , I'm certainly not advocating killing it off , but I will continue to say that stand alone Iconic days will be the way to go . None as big as the new Champions day , but our numbers and quality can't sustain 3 days of quality racing in a week . 

[Chitty Chitty Bang]

3 hours ago, Ripples said:

For mine I disagree that Cup week in Christchurch is a goner in fact of all the Carnivals it is a success story, both Harness meetings on Tuesday and Friday attract good crowds and great betting races and  a significant number of Australian visitors and Cup Day at Riccarton attracts massive crowds with sometimes the sold out sign up. The week itself provides a massive boost to the Christchurch economy and will be here for decades to come.

Agree.  Attended last year and had a ball and even came away with a trophy.  Took a newcomer to racing and they had a fantastic experience.

If Cup Week in Christchurch dies the so does both equine codes in NZ.

[scooby3051]

It may survive in some form or other to tie in with the Trotting Cup, but I think the Guineas is near a done deal that they will leave, the costs associated with getting one down there now make it really not worth the effort when so much money is on offer up north.