Synthetic V Grass. Is synthetic safe?

[Pheroz]

Following last weeks Riccarton move from Grass to Synthetic the fields were reduced considerably by horses being scratched.

Clearly trainers did not want to run on the synthetic as opposed to grass.

Is there any evidence to justify not running on synthetic surfaces?

The synthetic tracks have been around for a couple of seasons and have apparently met with their proposed purpose.

Does anyone have any knowledge around the merits or otherwise of the synthetics?

I have a small share in a filly due to start on the synthetic.

[Leggy]

12 minutes ago, Pheroz said:

Following last weeks Riccarton move from Grass to Synthetic the fields were reduced considerably by horses being scratched.

Clearly trainers did not want to run on the synthetic as opposed to grass.

Is there any evidence to justify not running on synthetic surfaces?

The synthetic tracks have been around for a couple of seasons and have apparently met with their proposed purpose.

Does anyone have any knowledge around the merits or otherwise of the synthetics?

I have a small share in a filly due to start on the synthetic.

Here's some US data to consider.

[Pak Star]

9 minutes ago, Pheroz said:

Clearly trainers did not want to run on the synthetic as opposed to grass.

I don't know enough to have an educated opinion on your wider point, but I have seen a lot of comments centred around this sentence I have quoted and thought it was strange.  Some of NZs biggest stables, and certainly some of the biggest South stables, had a winner on Saturday. 

Was there a trainer who scratched ALL their runners?  Are we assuming trainers didnt want to but owners gave them the hard word?  The number of scratchings seems to fit the narrative, but the wide range of stables lining up a runner does not.  

[nomates]

33 minutes ago, Pheroz said:

The synthetic tracks have been around for a couple of seasons and have apparently met with their proposed purpose

They have failed their proposed purpose which was to stop industry losses from abandonments , that was the sole purpose of them being built .

[nomates]

19 minutes ago, Pak Star said:

I don't know enough to have an educated opinion on your wider point, but I have seen a lot of comments centred around this sentence I have quoted and thought it was strange.  Some of NZs biggest stables, and certainly some of the biggest South stables, had a winner on Saturday. 

Was there a trainer who scratched ALL their runners?  Are we assuming trainers didnt want to but owners gave them the hard word?  The number of scratchings seems to fit the narrative, but the wide range of stables lining up a runner does not.  

There was a couple who scratched all their runners I believe , the Tyler stable scr'd all but 2 , one having raced and won on them in Q'land and the other needing a run because it was heading over there . Anna Furlong the other ? Both stated their horses required wet tracks to be competitive .

Most big stables run horses there as a last resort for a lot of horses , in the hope that the horse might handle it .

The biggest issue for a horse that handles the A/W's is that they have no long term future as once they reach a certain rating on them they have to revert back to grass racing .

The fact that they don't run races past R75 suggests that even NZTR understand that it is racing for lower class horses , why?

[Pheroz]

Thanks for the US data Leggy, it appears that the synthetic has the smallest percentages of fatalities per 1000 runs. 

The synthetic also has the smallest number of runs.

What is  not clear is the calibre of horse running, Riccarton last week was the first black type race on synthetic.

Can an all weather winner  compete on grass ? any examples of success on both?

[nomates]

I mentioned the other week that there is clearly an issue around numbers , it has been clear that numbers have not been good outside of Riccarton , and some suggest that is because opportunities are limited for grass track racing during the wet months .

Cambridge and Awapuni have programmed open nom's for their meetings for the foreseeable future , so they will see how many nom for a specific distance then make fields up from there , so I would think there will be many 1 race winners racing against higher rated horses . 

This in my books is an admission that they are worried about getting sufficient numbers , going to be interesting .

[We're Doomed]

To be fair, the Riccarton scratchings were because trainers accepted thinking they would be racing on a heavy 10 and accepted with horses suited to that. Most of those horses were not ones that had a natural liking for a firm AWT. Connections were given no compensation for that significant change of venue.

As Nomates says, it is a dead end if you have a horse suited to AWTs as they largely end up racing for $17,000, with only a few token exceptions.

The SI is not a fair indication of trainers enthusiasm for the AWTs. Southern horses have the Claytons option of racing on the AWT or not at all. Awapuni and Cambridge are probably better indications of trainers enthusiasm for the AWTs.

[scooby3051]

I agree they were sold as one thing and have ended up being another. I know from working with them in Asia they can cause catastrophic injuries if not maintained and managed correctly.

The thing I cant get over is that the three we have all seem to look different but I do not know if some of the materials used in each place were different.

I would not like to race a good horse on them, for me they are too tight and very boring to watch also.

I was surprised last year to see the photos of Riccarton that were wildly circulated but I believe now those issues have been addressed and rectified.

[Leggy]

12 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

To be fair, the Riccarton scratchings were because trainers accepted thinking they would be racing on a heavy 10 and accepted with horses suited to that. Most of those horses were not ones that had a natural liking for a firm AWT. Connections were given no compensation for that significant change of venue.

I'd say that would explain the majority of defections along with significant distance change and possibly horses not pre-conditioned for synthetic surface racing.

[We're Doomed]

I should add that I have absolutely no problem with the AWTs as such, contrary to what it may seem sometimes.

However, I see the AWTs as an add on, a nice to have extra option.

What I do object to is the way the provincial track at Yaldhurst  has been used in a cynical and vindictive fashion.

NZTR have absolutely no interest in "helping out" the SI with an AWT. They have never spent that amount of money to help the SI. They purely see it as an opportunity to close down several existing well performed tracks.

It is highly likely the Riccarton track is the best of the three, the others are too small and tight, but that doesn't excuse the way it has been used to kill off other clubs/tracks.

[JJ Flash]

13 hours ago, nomates said:

The biggest issue for a horse that handles the A/W's is that they have no long term future as once they reach a certain rating on them they have to revert back to grass racing .

And vice versa?

[JJ Flash]

13 hours ago, nomates said:

They have failed their proposed purpose which was to stop industry losses from abandonments , that was the sole purpose of them being built .

Wasn't it also to get votes for NZ First and their regional development policy as that was part of coalition deal

[Pam Robson]

1 minute ago, JJ Flash said:

Wasn't it also to get votes for NZ First and their regional development policy as that was part of coalition deal

Most likely 

[nomates]

46 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Wasn't it also to get votes for NZ First and their regional development policy as that was part of coalition deal

Totally , just like getting rid of the dogs is about trying to garner some of the animal rights people to vote for him .

[Palliser]

13 minutes ago, nomates said:

Totally , just like getting rid of the dogs is about trying to garner some of the animal rights people to vote for him .

100% .. it's a worry when things in this country are not done because it's sensible, viable and good for whatever industry.

This along with the greyhound ban decisions have been done for all the WRONG bloody reasons.

Politics has no place at all in the racing industry, we have the uneducated with ill-informed opinions making decisions that are having a detrimental affect on people's lives

[JJ Flash]

54 minutes ago, Palliser said:

we have the uneducated with ill-informed opinions making decisions that are having a detrimental affect on people's lives

Let's not confine it to just racing where politics are involved. It's one of the great failings of democracy, getting reelected is all that counts to some

[nomates]

35 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Let's not confine it to just racing where politics are involved. It's one of the great failings of democracy, getting reelected is all that counts to some

Beat me to it , society has been wrecked by people in suits or with degrees that think they know all the answers .

Somewhere along the line "common dog" went out the window .

Now it's a perpetual round about of these people validating each other .

Thank F#@K I'm closer to the end than the start .

[skoota]

Quote

 

"Common Dog" ?

[nomates]

5 minutes ago, skoota said:

"Common Dog" ?

Common sense .

[Pam Robson]

16 hours ago, Pheroz said:

Thanks for the US data Leggy, it appears that the synthetic has the smallest percentages of fatalities per 1000 runs. 

The synthetic also has the smallest number of runs.

What is  not clear is the calibre of horse running, Riccarton last week was the first black type race on synthetic.

Can an all weather winner  compete on grass ? any examples of success on both?

 

No doubt plenty here, but I don't have the time or energy to scroll through results.

But two very high class runners in the UK, the 2000 Guineas winner Notable Speech - who had never raced on grass before the Guineas, and the champion mare Enable, getting in a prep run - and winning -  before the Arc.

[JJ Flash]

41 minutes ago, nomates said:

Now it's a perpetual round about of these people validating each other

A byproduct of MMP

[Insider]

3 hours ago, Palliser said:

100% .. it's a worry when things in this country are not done because it's sensible, viable and good for whatever industry.

This along with the greyhound ban decisions have been done for all the WRONG bloody reasons.

Politics has no place at all in the racing industry, we have the uneducated with ill-informed opinions making decisions that are having a detrimental affect on people's lives

Our industry went along just fine in the old days under Internal Affairs whose only real responsibility was to make sure that the TAB was operating according to the rules laid down by parliament.  

Then some bright spark thought that we needed a Minister of Racing and haven’t there been some beauts? I can’t remember the names of most of them only their inaptitude. Probably the least effective was that bloke from around Otaki. 
 

 

[We're Doomed]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

 

Then some bright spark thought that we needed a Minister of Racing and haven’t there been some beauts? I can’t remember the names of most of them only their inaptitude. Probably the least effective was that bloke from around Otaki. 
 

 

That's a big call. There was one from the Wairarapa who wasn't that flash.

[JJ Flash]

15 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

That's a big call. There was one from the Wairarapa who wasn't that flash.

Heres a list to pick the bones out of. Racing ministers since 1990

J Falloon

D Marshall

T Henare

C Simich

A King

M Gosche

D O'Conner

W Peters

J Carter

N Guy

D Bennett

K McAnulty

W Peters