We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 4 Surely we are reaching the point where there needs to be a total reassessment of the NZ Group and Listed race structure. The annual tinkering isn't doing the job. We have seen a string of black type races races in the NI with small, poor quality fields and now this weekend we get the Hazlett Stakes at Wingatui where the Stewards winner Buoyant, winner of a $50,000 open sprint three starts back, is likely to be the 5th emergency in a SI listed race. He would walk into any of the races he was eligible for at Te Rapa this weekend. And talking of Te Rapa, only 6 noms for the $275,000 fillies race. It does seem to show the folly of running heaps of feature races on the same day where the top horses are forced to pick and choose. I expect the same thing will happen on slot day. Always sad to see no 3yo in the Dyke, likely to be the same on slot day. racingoutsider, nomates, Pam Robson and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
racingoutsider 352 Report post Posted February 4 5 hours ago, We're Doomed said: Surely we are reaching the point where there needs to be a total reassessment of the NZ Group and Listed race structure. The annual tinkering isn't doing the job. We have seen a string of black type races races in the NI with small, poor quality fields and now this weekend we get the Hazlett Stakes at Wingatui where the Stewards winner Buoyant, winner of a $50,000 open sprint three starts back, is likely to be the 5th emergency in a SI listed race. He would walk into any of the races he was eligible for at Te Rapa this weekend. And talking of Te Rapa, only 6 noms for the $275,000 fillies race. It does seem to show the folly of running heaps of feature races on the same day where the top horses are forced to pick and choose. I expect the same thing will happen on slot day. Always sad to see no 3yo in the Dyke, likely to be the same on slot day. It's the same for all programming top to bottom. The tinkering is totally ineffective. As you point out, at Wingatui you've got R80s on the ballot in the Hazlett and a maiden gets a run in the open 2200. Pam Robson and nomates 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 4 3 hours ago, racingoutsider said: It's the same for all programming top to bottom. The tinkering is totally ineffective. As you point out, at Wingatui you've got R80s on the ballot in the Hazlett and a maiden gets a run in the open 2200. Rating 82s balloted in the Hazlett. I doubt you would be able to find an open race anywhere in the NI where a rating 82 couldn't get a start. And that poor bloody maiden stayer having to race in the open race. Its because it is hard to find a maiden stayers race in the SI and the rating 65 on Saturday isn't an option as he would be balloted in that, and in most other southern 65s. Tauhei Notts, nomates and Pam Robson 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 4 9 hours ago, We're Doomed said: Surely we are reaching the point where there needs to be a total reassessment of the NZ Group and Listed race structure. The annual tinkering isn't doing the job. We have seen a string of black type races races in the NI with small, poor quality fields and now this weekend we get the Hazlett Stakes at Wingatui where the Stewards winner Buoyant, winner of a $50,000 open sprint three starts back, is likely to be the 5th emergency in a SI listed race. He would walk into any of the races he was eligible for at Te Rapa this weekend. And talking of Te Rapa, only 6 noms for the $275,000 fillies race. It does seem to show the folly of running heaps of feature races on the same day where the top horses are forced to pick and choose. I expect the same thing will happen on slot day. Always sad to see no 3yo in the Dyke, likely to be the same on slot day. The black type racing in NZ (and Aus) is a bloated whale , driven by the breeding sector . Every time they say they're looking at it but always put a blindfold on before hand . We should lose at least 40% of black type races in NZ and we would still be too heavy . As for SI racing , as I've said before it is looked upon purely as a dumping ground and doesn't actually have any real correlation to the NZ racing structure . And just like true NZ ratings don't hold up in AUS most of the time , the vast majority of SI ratings wouldn't hold up in the NI , not bagging it , it's just the way it is . But like the NZ/Aus correlation the very best race to their rating . The fillies race is the perfect window into how piss poor our calendar and programming is fucked , they ran a listed fillies race over 1800 at New Plymouth last week with a larger field , did it have an affect on this weeks field , of course it bloody did . But this is a regular occurrence now , simply no thought put into it . Has no one looked at this and gone "Why are we still doing this shit?'. Apparently not . Pam Robson 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 4 52 minutes ago, nomates said: The fillies race is the perfect window into how piss poor our calendar and programming is fucked , they ran a listed fillies race over 1800 at New Plymouth last week with a larger field , did it have an affect on this weeks field , of course it bloody did . But this is a regular occurrence now , simply no thought put into it . Has no one looked at this and gone "Why are we still doing this shit?'. Apparently not . It would be interesting to be able to put a real person's name to the programming shambles. Surely it is someone's responsibility to oversee the nationwide programming? It would be interesting to know who that person is. They come out with all the press releases when they move group races from the CD to Auckland and brag about how it improves the pattern, but other than that we hear nothing to indicate that anyone has noticed there is an actual problem. Blaird and nomates 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio 48 Report post Posted February 4 I look forward to the Pattern Committee removing some Nth Island black type races this year instead of picking on the Sth Island We're Doomed and Pam Robson 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 4 I note that only two of the starters in the Tauherenikau listed race would have got a start in the Hazlett. Certainly some easy black type in the NI. On a more positive note, that sprint at Te Rapa would be one of the best fields I have seen assembled in NZ for some time. The top and bottom horses certainly make it interesting. It might be about time they went back to running the two WFA races at Te Rapa for the same stakes. $600,000 each would seem much fairer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Tesio said: I look forward to the Pattern Committee removing some Nth Island black type races this year instead of picking on the Sth Island Much better to just look down and have a snooze , you could be waiting a while . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
racingoutsider 352 Report post Posted February 4 3 hours ago, nomates said: As for SI racing , as I've said before it is looked upon purely as a dumping ground and doesn't actually have any real correlation to the NZ racing structure . And just like true NZ ratings don't hold up in AUS most of the time , the vast majority of SI ratings wouldn't hold up in the NI , not bagging it , it's just the way it is . But like the NZ/Aus correlation the very best race to their rating . Don't agree. My data says rating band races in the SI are equally hard to win as in the NI. In fact the trend (though not significant) in the last two seasons is that they are harder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 5 1 hour ago, racingoutsider said: Don't agree. My data says rating band races in the SI are equally hard to win as in the NI. In fact the trend (though not significant) in the last two seasons is that they are harder. I agree. I thought Nomates comments were a bit strange and harsh. Although the way he wrote it he may have meant that is how it is perceived rather than how he views it. Surely people don't think Perfect Scenario and Harlech have both been "dumped in the south? Both have won $500,000 each. Perfect Scenario has won 11 races and ran third in a Trentham Group 1 three starts back. Harlech ran 2nd in a Group 3 five starts back. The southern sprinter Our Echo won an open sprint at Trentham on Wgtn Cup day, and to be fair he probably wouldn't be rated in the South Island's top 6 sprinters. The northern raider was well beaten in the Gore Guineas last week, as was the northern contender in the Timaru Stakes the week prior. And of course the Southern 2yo was placed in the sweepstake race at Ellerslie and Matscot was placed in a Group 1 WFA earlier and goes around again this weekend. I think some of the comments about the quality of Southern racing are extremely harsh. And that is without mentioning recent Timaru Cups after that race was delisted. It probably attracts better fields than at least 10 similar northern races. racingoutsider and Tesio 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 5 1 hour ago, racingoutsider said: Don't agree. My data says rating band races in the SI are equally hard to win as in the NI. In fact the trend (though not significant) in the last two seasons is that they are harder. Winning a race anywhere is bloody hard and should be celebrated . 34 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: I agree. I thought Nomates comments were a bit strange and harsh. Although the way he wrote it he may have meant that is how it is perceived rather than how he views it. Surely people don't think Perfect Scenario and Harlech have both been "dumped in the south? Both have won $500,000 each. Perfect Scenario has won 11 races and ran third in a Trentham Group 1 three starts back. Harlech ran 2nd in a Group 3 five starts back. The southern sprinter Our Echo won an open sprint at Trentham on Wgtn Cup day, and to be fair he probably wouldn't be rated in the South Island's top 6 sprinters. The northern raider was well beaten in the Gore Guineas last week, as was the northern contender in the Timaru Stakes the week prior. And of course the Southern 2yo was placed in the sweepstake race at Ellerslie and Matscot was placed in a Group 1 WFA earlier and goes around again this weekend. I think some of the comments about the quality of Southern racing are extremely harsh. And that is without mentioning recent Timaru Cups after that race was delisted. It probably attracts better fields than at least 10 similar northern races. I'm not trying to denigrate SI racing per say but there has to be a reality involved , a large majority are NI rejects , but the reality is very few of the lower rated bands would successfully compete in the NI , and I have noticed a few recently brought back north and not competed . Saying that the CD quality is not far behind now and in time will be at the same level . But we see far too many instances of a horse going south after battling in the north and win straight away or very quickly , there is a reason . If I had a horse battling in the north I would happily send it south simply because the racing is overall easier , and the great thing is that at the lower levels they are racing for the same stakes as up north . Do I like it? no! I grew up in an era when the SI was the equal of anywhere , Aus included . Watched many top horses come out of the south and win top races anywhere in NZ . Now that last statement tells us how far that the powers have allowed things to stagnate in the south , it's sad , but also bloody embarrassing , and they should be ashamed for allowing it . The CD is now going the same way . I honestly believe it is all too late now , the south and now the CD have become dumping grounds for the northern region . As I said the best from the south can compete at higher levels in the North , and WD you have pointed a couple out , but really those are few and far between . We're Doomed 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
racingoutsider 352 Report post Posted February 5 20 minutes ago, nomates said: Winning a race anywhere is bloody hard and should be celebrated . I'm not trying to denigrate SI racing per say but there has to be a reality involved , a large majority are NI rejects , but the reality is very few of the lower rated bands would successfully compete in the NI , Do you have any evidence or data to support that claim? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 5 18 minutes ago, nomates said: Winning a race anywhere is bloody hard and should be celebrated . I'm not trying to denigrate SI racing per say but there has to be a reality involved , a large majority are NI rejects , but the reality is very few of the lower rated bands would successfully compete in the NI , and I have noticed a few recently brought back north and not competed . Saying that the CD quality is not far behind now and in time will be at the same level . But we see far too many instances of a horse going south after battling in the north and win straight away or very quickly , there is a reason . If I had a horse battling in the north I would happily send it south simply because the racing is overall easier , and the great thing is that at the lower levels they are racing for the same stakes as up north . Do I like it? no! I grew up in an era when the SI was the equal of anywhere , Aus included . Watched many top horses come out of the south and win top races anywhere in NZ . Now that last statement tells us how far that the powers have allowed things to stagnate in the south , it's sad , but also bloody embarrassing , and they should be ashamed for allowing it . The CD is now going the same way . I honestly believe it is all too late now , the south and now the CD have become dumping grounds for the northern region . As I said the best from the south can compete at higher levels in the North , and WD you have pointed a couple out , but really those are few and far between . As you say, the CD is deteriorating rapidly. The model just isn't working there. At a quick glance there are about 13 CD horses racing at Te Rapa this weekend for big stakes. That is appalling when you think about it. The distance from Palmerston North to Hamilton isn't much further than ChCh to Dunedin. At the same time there are about 20 northerners happy to head to the CD to race for $18,500 this long weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 5 41 minutes ago, racingoutsider said: Do you have any evidence or data to support that claim? Mate com on , there is a reason that TA has a stable in the south , there was a reason Marsh had horses stabled down here . If I wanted to sit down and spend enough time then yeah I could come up with evidence , for now I'll say I have been involved and watched racing for nearly as long as yourself so I'll say that it passes my eye test . I know your a proud southerner but the REALITY is very FEW SI horses go north and win . If it's about the NI rejects then again just go through the fields . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 5 55 minutes ago, racingoutsider said: Do you have any evidence or data to support that claim? Just a little evidence , quickly looked thru the last couple of southern meetings , 10 races at Gore Sunday , of the 30 horses that filled the top 3 placings 50% were ex northern . At Invercargill last month 8 races were run , of the 24 horses that filled the top 3 placings 71% were ex northerners . Now IMO none of those ex northerners would be able to go north and win , but just my opinion , but perhaps you could come up with some evidence or data to refute my claim . More than happy to be proven wrong . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 5 4 minutes ago, nomates said: Just a little evidence , quickly looked thru the last couple of southern meetings , 10 races at Gore Sunday , of the 30 horses that filled the top 3 placings 50% were ex northern . At Invercargill last month 8 races were run , of the 24 horses that filled the top 3 placings 71% were ex northerners . Now IMO none of those ex northerners would be able to go north and win , but just my opinion , but perhaps you could come up with some evidence or data to refute my claim . More than happy to be proven wrong . Your facts are obviously quite correct Nomates, but that's what tiered was is all about and that's how it is supposed to work. It's why Waller and Neasham have big stables in Queensland. Its why Victorian horses get sent to SA. I think it shows some aspects of the industry are working well, usually despite the efforts of NZTR. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 5 29 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: Your facts are obviously quite correct Nomates, but that's what tiered was is all about and that's how it is supposed to work. It's why Waller and Neasham have big stables in Queensland. Its why Victorian horses get sent to SA. I think it shows some aspects of the industry are working well, usually despite the efforts of NZTR. Totally agree , without that outlet where would those ex northerners go , certainly not racing , and god knows we need every horse possible . But just replying to a question . I wish it were different but it's just the situation we are in now . The reality is that the CD and SI are becoming more and more irrelevant in the big scheme of NZ racing . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio 48 Report post Posted February 5 2 hours ago, nomates said: Mate com on , there is a reason that TA has a stable in the south , there was a reason Marsh had horses stabled down here . If I wanted to sit down and spend enough time then yeah I could come up with evidence , for now I'll say I have been involved and watched racing for nearly as long as yourself so I'll say that it passes my eye test . I know your a proud southerner but the REALITY is very FEW SI horses go north and win . If it's about the NI rejects then again just go through the fields . Some would say so those stables can keep sucking the $$$ out of their clients? How many races have TA won today at riccarton, judging by the love race article this week they should have been winning every race. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 5 41 minutes ago, Tesio said: Some would say so those stables can keep sucking the $$$ out of their clients? How many races have TA won today at riccarton, judging by the love race article this week they should have been winning every race. They still seem to get punter support in the south. I thought South of Houston was the best bet of the day after its unlucky run in good company last start. It ended up paying over $6 with the unplaced Te Akau horse a $2 fav. I'm not a Te Akau knocker at all, but I do like seeing their false favs in races where I like something else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 8 On 2/5/2025 at 1:22 PM, We're Doomed said: Surely people don't think Perfect Scenario and Harlech have both been "dumped in the south? Both have won $500,000 each. Perfect Scenario has won 11 races and ran third in a Trentham Group 1 three starts back. Harlech ran 2nd in a Group 3 five starts back. Harlech just blew them away in the Hazlett . I just went and checked his form , had 13 starts since the beginning of 2023 , 5 in the SI , has been a winner or placed in all 5 of those 5 SI starts , of the 8 starts he had in the NI in that time the closest he got was 4th . I maybe wrong but the correlation I get is that it is easier to win a race in the SI . Again I'm not dumping on the SI , it's just a sad reflection of the negligence of those empowered to manage NZ racing . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates 5,422 Report post Posted February 8 1 minute ago, nomates said: Harlech just blew them away in the Hazlett . I just went and checked his form , had 13 starts since the beginning of 2023 , 5 in the SI , has been a winner or placed in all 5 of those 5 SI starts , of the 8 starts he had in the NI in that time the closest he got was 4th . I maybe wrong but the correlation I get is that it is easier to win a race in the SI . Again I'm not dumping on the SI , it's just a sad reflection of the negligence of those empowered to manage NZ racing . Actually that makes me ask a question about the neglect of SI racing , why when we have all this money being thrown at stakes is the Hazlett still at 80k? . The Gore Gns was 80k , the Invercargill Gns is I think 120k . We can throw 350k at mid level races but neglect the lower SI triple crown . Why can't they be 200k at least . Is there an agenda ??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 5,792 Report post Posted February 8 3 hours ago, nomates said: Actually that makes me ask a question about the neglect of SI racing , why when we have all this money being thrown at stakes is the Hazlett still at 80k? . The Gore Gns was 80k , the Invercargill Gns is I think 120k . We can throw 350k at mid level races but neglect the lower SI triple crown . Why can't they be 200k at least . Is there an agenda ??? A couple of Invercargill guineas winners (from memory( prominent in the same race in Sydney today. The form from down there isn't too bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcaviar56 99 Report post Posted February 8 Talking Group races The BCD sprint the Aussies came and conquered no real surprise geez it was a big margin though for a supposed G1. Savaglee was ok but would you be having second thoughts about going to OZ and taking them on in the Australian Guineas ? Ned Kelly, nomates and Maximus 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...