NZB Kiwi slot race

[Canterbury Man]

11 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Moron....last month of course.....

Do we wait until it's a 4yr old?  Or will it be chasing black type at the Brisbane Winter Carnival?  

[scooby3051]

5 hours ago, Canterbury Man said:

Do we wait until it's a 4yr old?  Or will it be chasing black type at the Brisbane Winter Carnival?  

I dont train him, so I dont mouth off but he is a decent horse in the making...that is as plain as day...but of course you would just argue for the sake of it

[Canterbury Man]

12 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

I dont train him, so I dont mouth off but he is a decent horse in the making...that is as plain as day...but of course you would just argue for the sake of it

Ok I just thought someone might have had him as the oil for the Wellington Guineas.

[scooby3051]

1 hour ago, Canterbury Man said:

Ok I just thought someone might have had him as the oil for the Wellington Guineas.

Best stick to telling lies in your cesspit with your mates Curious and SLB...they fawn over you...sorry we dont here.

[uncleremus]

Final thoughts on the slot race, for what they’re worth.

I started this thread on the 4^th of February with the suggestion that the remaining slot holders were struggling to fill the last 6 or so slots.  In my view, the race positioning on the calendar meant there were too many good 3 yos who were either not eligible or had already gone on other paths, such as Derby or Oaks preparations, or to Australia.

In my view, the results bore this out.  In race finishing order, here are the dates of the announcements that these horses were to take part: Damask Rose (26 December); Evaporate (8 January); Checkmate (16 January); Sought After (26 October); Perfumist (15 February); Sethito (27 January); and Ardalio (2 February).

So, with the sole exception of Perfumist, all of the first half of the field were already nominated by the 4^th of February.

Damask Rose was the highest rated NZ 3 yo in the field and she duly prevailed against the 3 Australian raiders, none of whom had been around Ellerslie before.  Hats off to Te Akau for positioning her so well for 2 restricted entry races and banking $2 million in the process!

But the makeup of the Kiwi field was very average, with a significant tail.  This was further emphasised by the naming of the 4 emergencies, who could have been in the Kiwi field, if any late injuries occurred.  The 4 emergencies ran in the last race, the Windsor Park Trophy and ran 3rd, 6th, 7th and 9th in a 9 horse field.

While there are many different views on the merits or otherwise of slot races in general and the Kiwi in particular, in my view it will fail to live up to its promise of showcasing the “very best” if changes do not take place.

[We're Doomed]

51 minutes ago, uncleremus said:

Final thoughts on the slot race, for what they’re worth.

I started this thread on the 4^th of February with the suggestion that the remaining slot holders were struggling to fill the last 6 or so slots.  In my view, the race positioning on the calendar meant there were too many good 3 yos who were either not eligible or had already gone on other paths, such as Derby or Oaks preparations, or to Australia.

In my view, the results bore this out.  In race finishing order, here are the dates of the announcements that these horses were to take part: Damask Rose (26 December); Evaporate (8 January); Checkmate (16 January); Sought After (26 October); Perfumist (15 February); Sethito (27 January); and Ardalio (2 February).

So, with the sole exception of Perfumist, all of the first half of the field were already nominated by the 4^th of February.

Damask Rose was the highest rated NZ 3 yo in the field and she duly prevailed against the 3 Australian raiders, none of whom had been around Ellerslie before.  Hats off to Te Akau for positioning her so well for 2 restricted entry races and banking $2 million in the process!

But the makeup of the Kiwi field was very average, with a significant tail.  This was further emphasised by the naming of the 4 emergencies, who could have been in the Kiwi field, if any late injuries occurred.  The 4 emergencies ran in the last race, the Windsor Park Trophy and ran 3rd, 6th, 7th and 9th in a 9 horse field.

While there are many different views on the merits or otherwise of slot races in general and the Kiwi in particular, in my view it will fail to live up to its promise of showcasing the “very best” if changes do not take place.

And the fact the race was won by probably about the 7th ranked 3yo in NZ is hardly a good look.

[Canterbury Man]

23 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

And the fact the race was won by probably about the 7th ranked 3yo in NZ is hardly a good look.

How do you get to the 7th ranked 3yr old at 1500m?

[Idolmite]

1 hour ago, uncleremus said:

Final thoughts on the slot race, for what they’re worth.

I started this thread on the 4^th of February with the suggestion that the remaining slot holders were struggling to fill the last 6 or so slots.  In my view, the race positioning on the calendar meant there were too many good 3 yos who were either not eligible or had already gone on other paths, such as Derby or Oaks preparations, or to Australia.

In my view, the results bore this out.  In race finishing order, here are the dates of the announcements that these horses were to take part: Damask Rose (26 December); Evaporate (8 January); Checkmate (16 January); Sought After (26 October); Perfumist (15 February); Sethito (27 January); and Ardalio (2 February).

So, with the sole exception of Perfumist, all of the first half of the field were already nominated by the 4^th of February.

Damask Rose was the highest rated NZ 3 yo in the field and she duly prevailed against the 3 Australian raiders, none of whom had been around Ellerslie before.  Hats off to Te Akau for positioning her so well for 2 restricted entry races and banking $2 million in the process!

But the makeup of the Kiwi field was very average, with a significant tail.  This was further emphasised by the naming of the 4 emergencies, who could have been in the Kiwi field, if any late injuries occurred.  The 4 emergencies ran in the last race, the Windsor Park Trophy and ran 3rd, 6th, 7th and 9th in a 9 horse field.

While there are many different views on the merits or otherwise of slot races in general and the Kiwi in particular, in my view it will fail to live up to its promise of showcasing the “very best” if changes do not take place.

I quite enjoyed the whole day, but still would have if they'd been one race less - the NZB Kiwi. If it wasn't for Blake Shinn's winning ride I'd probably have forgotten about it already. Yeah, granted, my memory isn't what it once was, but the NZD Kiwi was only a mid-field runner when ranking the 10 races as a spectacle. Beyond midfield maybe.

History means something for a lot of us old-timers, and slot races hold no history whatsoever. Well not for some years to come anyway. Maybe next year will be different? Maybe not? Many of the less expensive races on the day's card offered a lot more excitement from my perspective. Maybe the young ones enjoyed it? The lure of millions of dollars? If so, maybe they've pulled the right rein. But we won't know the answer to that for another 40 years, if the same youngsters are still attending the races, owning horses themselves and/or punting up large. I hope they've installed GPS tracking devices with a lifetime supply of batteries on all attendees  

[We're Doomed]

3 hours ago, Canterbury Man said:

How do you get to the 7th ranked 3yr old at 1500m?

I didn't specify a distance. I said she would be the 7th ranked 3yo in the country. Where would you rate her? Her best performance in relevant races is a group 3 third.

[racingoutsider]

4 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

And the fact the race was won by probably about the 7th ranked 3yo in NZ is hardly a good look.

Do you mean 3yo "in" NZ or 3yo that has raced in NZ this season?

[Insider]

Yes, that question complicates things doesn’t it? I believe that the filly from down south is actually better than what she showed on Saturday BUT “it is Saturday’s race” that will define her. 
I guess that happens when one creates a “Champions Day” and for whatever reason some unfortunately disappoint. 
Liz

[We're Doomed]

6 minutes ago, racingoutsider said:

Do you mean 3yo "in" NZ or 3yo that has raced in NZ this season?

I meant NZ trained 3yos. And I don't mean purely handicappers ratings. I am referring to how people might assess the current crop when determining 3yo of the year. 

Obviously the top 3yo is Savaglee. A group 1 win, placed at WFA in a group 1 and placed in Group 1 company in Aussie. The next four or five would be the Group 1 1,000 Guineas winner, although she has gone off the boil badly in Aussie, the Derby winner, Alabama Lass, Group 1 placed in the 1,000 Guineas. Group 1 placed in the Railway and an impressive winner over the horse that beat her in the Railway a few days ago, then Leica Lucy, especially if she wins the Group 1 Oaks.

The slot winner's only chance to raise in the rankings is probably if she wins something in Aussie. She isn't nominated for the Oaks and there isn't much left for her here.

Stakes are irrelevant when assessing horses relative merits. You can't rate a horse based on a couple of restricted entry listed races regardless of stakes. We saw the folly of people being taken in by restricted race results when they voted Tokyp Tycoon 2yo of the year based on a restricted race win.  It went on to win one race as a very early 3yo.

From vague memory I think the best quality the slot winner has raced against was a group 3. I'm not knocking the horse at all. The connections have won the money, so good on them.

[stodge]

None of my beeswax of course but we don't have Slot races up here and we've never needed them.

Simply put the money up and try to get the best to come and run - the money is reasonable without being exceptional and I'm not sure about paying NZD 100,000 to all the finishers so even the last horse got a nice payday. This is why and how you get all the dead wood to turn up - for a slower horse, the money is still very good and more than they could get in other races.

For example, PIVOTAL TEN's connections got NZD 100,000 for finishing thirteenth but only NZD 69k for bolting up in the Southland Guineas.

I'd have a NZD 2 million winning pot and nice sums for the first five but nowt for the rest - that's how you get the quality runners.

The other question is whether you want challengers from Australia and elsewhere or you want it to be a Kiwi race called the Kiwi for Kiwi owned and trained horses only? Other jurisdictions have done it in the past - Japan did for example for many years. The risk of international competition for serious money is, as with the Melbourne Cup, the foreigners will come and take the money. 

Given the time of year, I suspect you wouldn't get a Northern Hemisphere 3-y-o to come over (Coolmore and Godolphin might have other ideas of course). Your 3-y-o are halfway through their "year", ours are only just beginning. I suppose you could dangle a nice weight concession (Racing Victoria did that for the Melbourne Cup and ended up with REWILDING) or open the way to Northern Hemisphere 4-y-o (perhaps) but I don't know if that's the point. 

If it's a race to showcase the best of New Zealand 3-y-o, fine, I get that.

Let me ask a different question - had TARDELLI or ROMILLY run in the Kiwi, how do you think they would have fared? The Windsor Park race was run much slower than the Kiwi but that might have been the nature of the race.

 

[We're Doomed]

3 minutes ago, stodge said:

None of my beeswax of course but we don't have Slot races up here and we've never needed them.

Simply put the money up and try to get the best to come and run - the money is reasonable without being exceptional and I'm not sure about paying NZD 100,000 to all the finishers so even the last horse got a nice payday. This is why and how you get all the dead wood to turn up - for a slower horse, the money is still very good and more than they could get in other races.

For example, PIVOTAL TEN's connections got NZD 100,000 for finishing thirteenth but only NZD 69k for bolting up in the Southland Guineas.

I'd have a NZD 2 million winning pot and nice sums for the first five but nowt for the rest - that's how you get the quality runners.

The other question is whether you want challengers from Australia and elsewhere or you want it to be a Kiwi race called the Kiwi for Kiwi owned and trained horses only? Other jurisdictions have done it in the past - Japan did for example for many years. The risk of international competition for serious money is, as with the Melbourne Cup, the foreigners will come and take the money. 

Given the time of year, I suspect you wouldn't get a Northern Hemisphere 3-y-o to come over (Coolmore and Godolphin might have other ideas of course). Your 3-y-o are halfway through their "year", ours are only just beginning. I suppose you could dangle a nice weight concession (Racing Victoria did that for the Melbourne Cup and ended up with REWILDING) or open the way to Northern Hemisphere 4-y-o (perhaps) but I don't know if that's the point. 

If it's a race to showcase the best of New Zealand 3-y-o, fine, I get that.

Let me ask a different question - had TARDELLI or ROMILLY run in the Kiwi, how do you think they would have fared? The Windsor Park race was run much slower than the Kiwi but that might have been the nature of the race.

 

I thought Tardelli was very impressive. Not eligible for the slot of course.

We could potentially have the unusual situation in years to come where the slot remains listed and the consolation could make it to group 3. 

[stodge]

11 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

I thought Tardelli was very impressive. Not eligible for the slot of course.

We could potentially have the unusual situation in years to come where the slot remains listed and the consolation could make it to group 3. 

Indeed and that's why Slot races don't happen in most jurisdictions or if they do they don't remain as Slot races for long.

If you want the Kiwi to be a Group 1, it has to have quality runners filling the places to bring up the ratings average. 

As a wise man once said, money talks, men walk - the "men" in this instance being owners. I've no problem with Te Akau winning the race per se but wouldn't it be good to have some smaller owner having a real chance with a good horse? That's the kind of narrative for which horse racing should be looking not regressing to the bad old days of it being a hobby purely for the wealthy but perhaps having small syndicates able to have a go.

[Pete Lane]

On 3/9/2025 at 7:55 PM, Canterbury Man said:

Do we wait until it's a 4yr old?  Or will it be chasing black type at the Brisbane Winter Carnival?  

The connections obviously think more of Sought After than you do.

Off to Peter Moody's stable.

[scooby3051]

1 hour ago, Pete Lane said:

The connections obviously think more of Sought After than you do.

Off to Peter Moody's stable.

Dont worry Pete he will be a very good horse...I have no doubt you will be correct here...dont worry about CM he has no clue.

[Canterbury Man]

5 hours ago, Pete Lane said:

The connections obviously think more of Sought After than you do.

Well it seems their decision was more drive by the lack of opportunities here in NZ.  Which is a sad indictment in itself.  

“He will follow the same pathway and go over to Peter and Katherine for a bit, between Lance and I we looked at things and there’s not many options here in the immediate future,” Mark Chittick said. 

“All parties agreed that we would give him the opportunity over there and see whether he measures up.  

[mckenzie]

Pivotal Ten is also likely to be sent to be trained in Melbourne. There's been a big exodus of talented 3yos to Australia this season.

[scooby3051]

19 minutes ago, mckenzie said:

Pivotal Ten is also likely to be sent to be trained in Melbourne. There's been a big exodus of talented 3yos to Australia this season.

Going to Waller I believe.