$723

[CeeMeNow 245]

According to HRNZ, the Cambridge meeting on the 19th had a GBM of 0.13%, that equals $723 !

How is that even possible ? did the TAB fixed odds bookmakers totally F-up? or is it a printing error ?

The meeting had 8 races, all of which had 8 or more starters, T/O of $556k, it was on the same day as Addington Show day which had $3.4m T/O 

The stakes paid out totaled $125k, if the above is correct then that has been a total loss for Harness Racing.

 

[CeeMeNow 245]

On the 23 October Manawatu had a 5 race meeting, with 42 starters, and favorites winning 4 of the 5 races.

T/O  was $253k,  GBR was -$51k or -20.2%

So the TAB had negative betting revenue,  I presume that means that they  paid out  $304k  while only taking in $253k?

[MisterEd 364]

On 12/12/2023 at 5:19 PM, CeeMeNow said:

On the 23 October Manawatu had a 5 race meeting, with 42 starters, and favorites winning 4 of the 5 races.

T/O  was $253k,  GBR was -$51k or -20.2%

So the TAB had negative betting revenue,  I presume that means that they  paid out  $304k  while only taking in $253k?

That means the bookies got rooted right up the back passage on fixed. The pricing was great for punting that night the odds were almost bordering on here is your early Christmas present.

[CeeMeNow 245]

ATC                                  HRNZ funded Stakes               GB Revenue

3/Aug                                $154k                                       $119k

17/Aug                             $122k                                        $138k

31/Aug                             $165k                                        $229k

14/Sept                            $163k                                        $155k

22/Sept                            $266k                                        $194k

6/Oct                                $161k                                        $59k                               * The G in GBR stands for GROSS - there will still be considerable TAB

19/Oct                             $128k                                         $110k                              costs to come out of this figure

2/Nov                               $122k                                        $121k

10/Nov                             $141k                                       $110k             

                                                     $1,422,000                             $1,235,000  *     

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by CeeMeNow
structure

[2Piper 414]

Remember gaming tax is taken out also. However a loss is tax deductible at end of financial year.  So it is the overall picture that counts.

[Mikie 327]

19 hours ago, 2Piper said:

 However a loss is tax deductible at end of financial year.  

What on earth are you talking about 2Piper?

Tax deductable for who?

[2Piper 414]

4 minutes ago, Mikie said:

What on earth are you talking about 2Piper?

Tax deductable for who?

Entain

[2Piper 414]

6 minutes ago, 2Piper said:

Entain

Companies/businesses pay provisional tax,  gst and industry tax , this case is gaming tax.

Entain does not have to run rugby or other sports, but are bound by the agreement to fund racing.  The do pay to sports from the sport betting which they profit from much greater than racing.

Fuel companies pay gst and the roading tax from their takefrom selling petrol,  leaving a profit or loss.

At year ending Financials, if they have paid too much provisional tax they will get a refund, doesn't happen all too often though. Many businesses did find this situation during covid however.

[Mikie 327]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:46 AM, 2Piper said:

Companies/businesses pay provisional tax,  gst and industry tax , this case is gaming tax.

Entain does not have to run rugby or other sports, but are bound by the agreement to fund racing.  The do pay to sports from the sport betting which they profit from much greater than racing.

Fuel companies pay gst and the roading tax from their takefrom selling petrol,  leaving a profit or loss.

At year ending Financials, if they have paid too much provisional tax they will get a refund, doesn't happen all too often though. Many businesses did find this situation during covid however.

So what you are saying is that we are all doing it wrong

Instead of trying to make a profit with our businesses, we should aim to run them at a loss so we don't pay tax

Brilliant

[2Piper 414]

9 hours ago, Mikie said:

So what you are saying is that we are all doing it wrong

Instead of trying to make a profit with our businesses, we should aim to run them at a loss so we don't pay tax

Brilliant

No, I am not saying that, it is the overall picture , that we look at. The thread author has pounced on a weak meeting result, where most meetings make money. 

 

[Mikie 327]

1 hour ago, 2Piper said:

No, I am not saying that, it is the overall picture , that we look at. The thread author has pounced on a weak meeting result, where most meetings make money. 

 

That's utter rubbish

Very, very few ATC meetings "make" money

[2Piper 414]

 

 

42 minutes ago, Mikie said:

That's utter rubbish

Very, very few ATC meetings "make" money

Well , if that is the case why has the thread author thrown them in too. 

If there is a trend , it should be included in the picture. The thread author needs to back up bd  trends. 

I  have only commented on what is presented and what relativity it has . 

If there is a bad trend , then HRNZ should know about it, and report it to stake- holders.

[Mikie 327]

10 hours ago, 2Piper said:

 

 

Well , if that is the case why has the thread author thrown them in too. 

If there is a trend , it should be included in the picture. The thread author needs to back up bd  trends. 

I  have only commented on what is presented and what relativity it has . 

If there is a bad trend , then HRNZ should know about it, and report it to stake- holders.

The thread author has done exactly what you asked

Of the 9 examples that he offered the ATC received more in stakes funding on 7 of the 9 nights than they generated in rEVENUE FOR THE INDUSTRY

Perhaps you missed reading that post

HRNZ do know about it, it's not rocket science

The huge majority of stake holders know about it too 2Piper

[2Piper 414]

4 hours ago, Mikie said:

The thread author has done exactly what you asked

Of the 9 examples that he offered the ATC received more in stakes funding on 7 of the 9 nights than they generated in rEVENUE FOR THE INDUSTRY

Perhaps you missed reading that post

HRNZ do know about it, it's not rocket science

The huge majority of stake holders know about it too 2Piper

Yes , missed reading that post, 

However you still missed my point. Businesses have up and downs, and unfortunately the marketing of these meetings are failing to attract punters ,probably along with the case of little live radio coverage.  As pointed out in an earlier thread, not everyone has internet or has time to rush back inside to watch ( if you do have sky).

[Mikie 327]

22 hours ago, 2Piper said:

Yes , missed reading that post, 

However you still missed my point. Businesses have up and downs, and unfortunately the marketing of these meetings are failing to attract punters ,probably along with the case of little live radio coverage.  As pointed out in an earlier thread, not everyone has internet or has time to rush back inside to watch ( if you do have sky).

I haven't missed your point at all

It's not the marketing of the meetings

It's the field sizes and the clashes with Addington that are the primary reasons

However, no matter what the reasons are, you seem to have missed the point which is that the majority of meetings at ATC do not generate enough incomne for the indutry to cover the stakes funding they are provided with

[2Piper 414]

Have the stats taken out the sponsors contributions ?

There are 3 major entities ( and maybe contractors ) involved in the running of the meetings, clearly only HRNZ are disadvantaged. The club gets the stakes and get a return from food and beverage sales in some capacity. Entain get the punters take, and re-distribute earnings to which HRNZ recieve a portion of that . The government gets the gaming tax.

Maybe as an industry we lobby for a smaller gaming tax.

[Ohokaman 6,106]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:32 PM, 2Piper said:

Yes , missed reading that post, 

However you still missed my point. Businesses have up and downs, and unfortunately the marketing of these meetings are failing to attract punters ,probably along with the case of little live radio coverage.  As pointed out in an earlier thread, not everyone has internet or has time to rush back inside to watch ( if you do have sky).

Marketing of the meetings ?  Haven’t seen any for years.
When was the last major meeting advertised on Trackside or in the mainstream media ?
Trying to present an attractive entertainment option to a newer and younger audience was a focus over 20 years ago.
Gone backwards since.

[Mikie 327]

4 hours ago, 2Piper said:

Have the stats taken out the sponsors contributions ?

There are 3 major entities ( and maybe contractors ) involved in the running of the meetings, clearly only HRNZ are disadvantaged. The club gets the stakes and get a return from food and beverage sales in some capacity. Entain get the punters take, and re-distribute earnings to which HRNZ recieve a portion of that . The government gets the gaming tax.

Maybe as an industry we lobby for a smaller gaming tax.

"Clearly only HRNZ are disadvantaged"

Are you crazy?

It is industry money that HRNZ use, received from Entain,  to fund ATC stakes, so clearly the industry is disadvantaged 

You obviously haven't been to ATC lately, the return for the food and beverage sales would struggle to cover the wages

Have the stats taken out the sponsors contributions ? I presume you mean have the sponsor's contributions to racenames been factored in? I would doubt on an average Friday meeting that the sponsor's contributions would be worth getting too excited about

[Ohokaman 6,106]

Not wrong there Mikie from what I’ve heard.

And given the more pressing financial debt issues, I doubt it is a priority either.

[Pam Robson 1,723]

Sticking my nose in where it probably isn't wanted...but - as far as galloping is concerned, my understanding is that NO meeting earns sufficient in betting revenue to cover the stakes paid.  Despite all the b/s otherwise, the bigger [ higher- staked ] meetings lose more.

From what I'm reading, harness is in the same leaky boat.

Although the Entain involvement in extra funding is great for those who are fortunate to get a slice, the fact remains that our industries are reliant on revenue from betting to sustain ourselves.

Whether extra stakemoney will have any effect on betting at all, remains to be seen.   In the past, throwing money at a few selected races has had zero effect overall.

When Entain's promise comes to an end in 5 years and they and NZTAB return to a 50/50 share of actual income,  that will tell the story.   In the meantime, both harness and galloping have to sort out their code - managed issues of programming, dates, handicapping, etc.  Otherwise that slippery slope will become steeper.

[Mikie 327]

2 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

Sticking my nose in where it probably isn't wanted...but - as far as galloping is concerned, my understanding is that NO meeting earns sufficient in betting revenue to cover the stakes paid.  Despite all the b/s otherwise, the bigger [ higher- staked ] meetings lose more.

From what I'm reading, harness is in the same leaky boat.

Although the Entain involvement in extra funding is great for those who are fortunate to get a slice, the fact remains that our industries are reliant on revenue from betting to sustain ourselves.

Whether extra stakemoney will have any effect on betting at all, remains to be seen.   In the past, throwing money at a few selected races has had zero effect overall.

When Entain's promise comes to an end in 5 years and they and NZTAB return to a 50/50 share of actual income,  that will tell the story.   In the meantime, both harness and galloping have to sort out their code - managed issues of programming, dates, handicapping, etc.  Otherwise that slippery slope will become steeper.

Thanks Pam, but your understanding is incorrect

Plenty of harness meetings 'make' money (what they earn for the industry less HRNZ stakes)

However, they are the Westports, the Banks Peninsula's, the Methvens and the like

I would also think that most Addington run of the mill meetings also turn a profit

What profit they make is sucked up by (a) the Premier meetings and their stakes (which I'm not complaining about within reason) and (b) ATC meetings

[Leggy 4,192]

1 hour ago, Mikie said:

Thanks Pam, but your understanding is incorrect

Plenty of harness meetings 'make' money (what they earn for the industry less HRNZ stakes)

However, they are the Westports, the Banks Peninsula's, the Methvens and the like

I would also think that most Addington run of the mill meetings also turn a profit

What profit they make is sucked up by (a) the Premier meetings and their stakes (which I'm not complaining about within reason) and (b) ATC meetings

Thanks Mikie. Can you show us where that is reported please? I can't find it.

[CeeMeNow 245]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:09 PM, CeeMeNow said:

ATC                                  HRNZ funded Stakes               GB Revenue

3/Aug                                $154k                                       $119k

17/Aug                             $122k                                        $138k

31/Aug                             $165k                                        $229k

14/Sept                            $163k                                        $155k

22/Sept                            $266k                                        $194k

6/Oct                                $161k                                        $59k                               * The G in GBR stands for GROSS - there will still be considerable TAB

19/Oct                             $128k                                         $110k                              costs to come out of this figure

2/Nov                               $122k                                        $121k

10/Nov                             $141k                                       $110k             

                                                     $1,422,000                             $1,235,000  *     

 

Life got in the way of social media comment.

The above post shows nine consecutive ATC meetings over 3 and a half months, these meetings produced a combined Gross Betting Revenue of $1,235000,  that is the T/O minus what has been returned to the punters.  Then you have to deduct the TAB operating costs for those meetings,   before the " cone of silence " was lowered over TAB operations they used to take approximately  7% of T/O for operating costs, in the case of the nine ATC meetings that would be  $424,000.

Industry funded Stakes    $1,422,000               Betting Revenue     $811,000

There are other costs of course to running a meeting, the RIB for instance, there are also other income streams with the Betting Duty refund and the information levy refund as well as overseas betting income, but in ATC case I don't think they would be hugely positive.

Of the nine meetings,  I think the only one that would have made a small profit would have been the 31st  August, it had a very good "margin" of 30.7%.

ATC receives Rolls Royce funding, but delivers Lada returns, it gives back nothing to the Industry, it only takes from the pool that has been funded by others.

[Mikie 327]

On 12/20/2023 at 8:53 AM, Leggy said:

Thanks Mikie. Can you show us where that is reported please? I can't find it.

HRNZ Reports of GBR Leggy

Plus CeeMeNow's post above

Plus a bit of common sense; ask yourself: if HRNZ receives Income from Entain as a result of GBR from all meetings In NZ, and from that money they fund stakes, and they give ATC meetings in stakes more than they earn then obviously there are meetings that generate more in GBR than the $ amount than they are provided with in stakes money. 

[CeeMeNow 245]

It used to be, that good T/O equaled good meeting, not any more, now it's the "margin" that determines the success, or not!

23/10  Ashburton       T/O $1.7m     GBM  9.3%    GBR   $159k          Stakes $334k

1/11    Methven           T/O  $924k    GBM  30%      GBR  $277k

30/10  Kaikoura           T/O  $1.48m   GBM 18.4%   GBR  $272K