Swynford

same theory   

When you go through catalogues and see how many foals mares have, how many winners, and then how many stakes winners, you would have to ask yourself "why breed from my own mare?" - at least to race. In my opinion, most stud fees are too high. I guess they are market driven, and if Asia keep buying, then all is good. It would be interesting to have some statistical analysis done (maybe it has already) based on the number of foals born each  year in NZ, and how many would pay their way using average rearing and training fees over a 3-4 year period of racing. I  guess this would be difficult to assess because of the number heading off shore. But my observations tell me it would less than 3% or 4% who stay in NZ.
Getting back to the thread, unless your mare is a K1 mare, why would you even want to pay 5k for most stallions, when you don't know how crooked the foal's legs will be, and what other issues it may have. 

Zacinto......The phone will be ringing hot tonight at 5K and why not.
Wonderful for the South Island and great to see. 

Exactly what I was thinking, when a horse like Brazen Beau can command $44k or Vancouver at $66k the fee looks fair. Standing for less than Pierro who hasn't even had a runner yet.
Going to be very difficult to maintain his current momentum though so time to cash in.

Racing is a funny game; ups and downs, peaks and troughs...

Very impressive victory.
Seems an appropriate way to celebrate.

Well spotted Huey.
But the time of the race was 2.03.96, the slowest since 1987.
Timeform assessment of the win at 121 probably sums it up.
Timeform do a very accurate and fair assessment.
 
 
 

Congratulations Dopey    one start one win   home in 33.57

Outreach, a full to Golden Slipper winner, Overeach, is going to Widden Stud at a fee of $A7700 incl GST...much better value than Headwater...in fact, Outreach would have been a good one for NZ...

just absurd...they all service 200+ mares (SH) so I would like to know, who stumps up the cash for all these service fees.  It never ceases to amaze me the people with "ordinary" mares will shell out $30k+...or do they?  of course, there are the genuine breeders who are breeding on a commercial basis, but in the main, its all about the money going round and round and round...cover your liabilities in the first 3 years and in the following years, you either have egg on your face or are holding the golden goose...in the meantime, some poor bunnies have paid full tote odds...and are left with a dud for sale but also a huge tax write off....????????? that's the underlying question..!

This family goes back to the 'blue hen' mare Malva, and what an amazing mare she was. Only 15 hands high, but the dam of derby winners Blenheim and King Salmon, and also of His Grace.
Blenheim of course is the sire of Mumtaz Begum, the dam of Nasrullah.
Breeders in New Zealand will also be familiar with this family, as Malva is the 3rd dam of champion sire Summertime, the fourth dam of NZ half brother sires Crest of the Wave and Palm Beach, and now the 9th dam of both Jakkalberry and Power.
This family has been extremely successful 'down under' and it would be no surprize if both Jakkalberry and Power continued this success with this great thoroughbred line.

I have signed off on this thread (see above). I recognised it was not going to the right place.

I agree, you both offer interesting insights and I enjoy reading your views. You both are as wrong as you are right and we are not hunting for the Higgs Boson, we are discussing theories on the confusing and murky "science" of horse breeding, a subject which reveals that theories are like (text removed) got one.

Berri and Swynford
 How about calling a truce. You're both going around in circles to no real benefit . I find you both make great, enjoyable contributions to the discussions but the ongoing "feud" doesn't add to anything.
 

Berri I was using her former stud Bloomsbury as an example as you were getting stuck into Swyndford about not breeding G1 winners and I am pretty sure Tavistock is the only G1 winner bred by Bloomsbury Stud NZ, a farm that had a committee of sorts which included some elite thoroughbred minds, who had some very well bred European broodmares, we all know about Mrs Moss' family, Snap, Repitition etc and were visiting the likes of Pins, O'Reilly, Zabeel, Montjeu, Stravinsky, Centaine amoung others. There are other examples of studs which bred average K2 K3 pedigree mares to average stallions with a planned objective in mind and bred multiple G1 winners over a short space of time. Go figure...

I think any unproven stallion owner would love a near $90,000 average from 2 tier mares, its not lies, people paid that much for his yearlings. 
The part that hit home to me was that it was nine times his service fee. Equal top price was out of a mare recommended by me 21 times his service fee. Given it costs around $25 to 30 K to get to Karaka  people who bred to him made a profit. I see value in that. Both stallion and mare owner win.  People stay and reinvest in the industry.
Comparing that to Berri's next biggie Ocean Park or for that matter any of his barn mates at WS, try adding 25 to 30 K to the yearlings sold by each of their stallions in the Select Session and tell me how much profit the brood-mare owner made. Easy to see who is winning here.   And you are right I do see the price of these ridiculous service fees but unless you own a mare that will get into Premier I didn't see any value in any of those stallions.. 
 
 
 

I think any unproven stallion owner would love a near $90,000 average from 2 tier mares, its not lies, people paid that much for his yearlings. 
The part that hit home to me was that it was nine times his service fee. Equal top price was out of a mare recommended by me 21 times his service fee. Given it costs around $25 to 30 K to get to Karaka  people who bred to him made a profit. I see value in that. Both stallion and mare owner win.  People stay and reinvest in the industry.
Comparing that to Berri's next biggie Ocean Park or for that matter any of his barn mates at WS, try adding 25 to 30 K to the yearlings sold by each of their stallions in the Select Session and tell me how much profit the brood-mare owner made. Easy to see who is winning here.   And you are right I do see the price of these ridiculous service fees but unless you own a mare that will get into Premier I didn't see any value in any of those stallions.. 
 
 
 

Agree with you Berri Indy King may always struggle, but I believe with the right mare I could get a good horse out of him. Because I believe an ounce of blood is worth a ton of bone.
And this breeding buff isn't dissappointed,   I will explain this further in a different thread but two mares that I selected for my client to suit a particular stallion based on line breeding both sold colts at the Select and Festival sale and they topped each sale.
And type wasn't really on the list when the mares were brought.
And you say you never met a champion breeder who does't study pedigrees, you must walk around with your eyes closed, Years ago I had quite a few sessions around pedigrees with a mate of yours Sir Patrick and  I can tell you he knows far more than what people realize. He has had so much success with horses like (Sir Tristram, Zabeel, Eight Carat and now Tavistock ) that have stout female families that I don't believe it is a coincidence and comes from studying pedigrees. When he first brought Tavistock I remember him saying he is from the same family as Foxbridge
I also read years ago, I think it was in an old Bloodhorse or Hoofbeats  magazine Nelson Schick  "has a passion for Pedigrees'    certainly the head man there now Steve is a huge pedigree man 
I have walked into Trelawnys office many years ago and there were pedigree print outs stacked high.   These people all very successful, not saying they don't take type into consideration, we all do,  but I don't think it 'rules     
 
 
 

Ivan, If you are inferring that I will be on Weight In tomorrow you have got me mixed up with someone else. 
However if they would invite me I would be there in a shot and I would ask the hard questions.
If it was tomorrow Karen and Rutherford wouldn't know which way to look given the corrupt crap they dished up this morning when I backed Sacred Star for big money based on a Good 3 track.
That is the worst lie ever told about a track [on the morning of the races] in my living history.
Liz 

Last Sunday on Weighin Ken  Rutherford rubbished the small clubs about their lack of irrigation knowledge; "they just chuck a bit of water on and hope for the best.  Its just not good enough. They need some advice and help from larger clubs"  Who is going to ask to give Te Rapa some advice?

Thats the problem I think they had an upgrade lol
Very difficult to maneuver about on, not particularly user friendly as an example you click on a photo of a horse in the catalogue and it goes to the horse photo , then click on the lot number it goes to the pedigree page click back and it takes you back to the start of the catalogue. Viewing the results now is also a horrible experience unless dumped into Excel.
Very frustrating as before the site was excellent, visually good and easy to get around and find what you wanted. The streaming on the site has also been a step backwards from what it was, I gave up on the Select sale most days after about 20 mins.

What colour? Maybe a nice cobalt blue?

Dear oh dear !!
Take your medicine please and stop the pathetic excuses.
Randwick is tight and turning !! Since when ?
He doesn't like the wet ? since when ?
The track was holding ? It's sand based FFS.
He'll be better left handed !!
He'll be better over a trip ! tell Smedley that.
Just bend over and take it like a man.
He was hyper inflated by a team of delusional cheer leaders including George Simon who's usually better than this, and the brain dead Trackside production crew who seem determined to prove how little they know and how poor their grasp of racing reality really is.
The good judges in NZ knew the truth, and Dufficy said exactly that before the race.
Now the chickens have come home to roost, but look on the bright side, you can buy a shit load of caps and T shirts going real cheap today !!

And there's another rort.
Seems a bit mean to rain on their parade but what an unbelievable leg up The Diamond One has had from the handicapper.
Wins the listed $70,000 Cuddke Stakes four starts ago and doesn't get a single point, not a single point.. then has two misses and loses 2 points each time so it's won a black type race and is now 2kg better off in the handicap.
This campaign it's run twice for a 5th and a 2nd, gets one single point for that, then today wins another $70,000 black type race !!
That's four G3 wins in two years now for a total of 4 points penalty !!! ( today's penalty still to come of course ).
What chance have the male horses got ? this mare gets 2kg relief in two starts then gets another 2kg for being a female.....even the poor owners of Illuminati must be scratching their heads and screaming WTF !!.....
This is bordering on the bizarre and stinks of third world handicapping if not blatant corruption.
 

Poof!