hsvman

You're a good advocate for them Tim but very obviously extremely bias. It's simplistic just to say "if you don't like the cowboy races then just don't bet". There are many bet types that punters enjoy. I would never dream of taking a win or trifecta bet etc in one of these races. I just don't have the confidence to spend my professionally hard earned funds on an amateur drivers race where it is very likely that at least some of the driving on display will be of a poor standard devoid of tactical nous.  In this day and age of professionalism, I personally believe it's a sad reflection on the industry that these races are routinely run to welcome patrons on course. I frankly believe it's a total cop out to tell individual punters not to bet if you don't like them. That logic does not legitimize the events or make some of the driving on display any more acceptable. Does it?
It should also be remembered that other bet types such as doubles,trebles and quaddies often run through the cowboy races. When you tell those punters not to bet you are in fact telling them not to bet on one,two or three other races that they consider professional events. They may well be following a horse in a connected event. Isn't it completely selfish to our entire industry just to tell those punters,effectively to go away? Why? So some hobby drivers can have another moment on stage under a spotlight?
Harness racing is a great sport and if we are going to routinely run these races then we shouldn't allow them to become a divisive them and us type race. As in all sports people have their opinions based on their own observations. It seems to me the pro cowboy race brigade invariably have a vested interest. Some of the driving I've seen in these races along the way is top class and would not be out of place in a feature race. Unfortunately some of the "hobby" driving however is woeful and has no place in a totalisator race. Perhaps the answer is weed out those woeful drivers so more people have confidence in these races. "Cowboy" is disrespectful to the good amateurs. To them I apologize. To the others the word cowboy is very appropriate. John Wayne was a good actor in his time who was comfortable on a horse. Would you have backed him if he rode a live chance in the Railway?  Is your $5 worth any more or less in a Railway than an amateur driver race?

Well she bet on a horse she wasn't driving in nz cup so anything goes really 

Some sensibility.
Now, obviously there are punters that follow only one of the three codes & to each their own, there's nothing wrong with that.
What could be built on from such a brief debate is some form of togetherness between the codes.
Brodie, if you're fighting with the TAB/NZRB in there left ear solely for harness code issues because it's your passion, your debate will be partially drowned out by someone like myself making a very similar case for my passion with the greyhound code in their right ear.
With me so far?
If both you & I take our combined complaint (something that would suit your needs as well as those of my own) to the TAB/NZRB together & united, we're both more likely to gain some form of end result that each one of us could see as a markable improvement. Add to that some of the voices from the gallop code & the TAB/NZRB will be bailing out the boat as fast as they can. 
As individual codes, we're all in our own unique little submarines trying to fight the warship on the surface. Our sub's are slowly sinking as the pressure outside their hulls increases. If somehow we could combined the power of all three of our subs, the warship will have no choice but to a least offer a cease fire. They'll quickly realize they'll only be able to fill their coffers so much with revenue from FOB on darts. 

Short priced favourites often dominate whether Purdon/Rasmussen team is there or not. Take last Friday's Addington meeting for example. Purdon only had one horse at the meeting, Hug the Wind that ran second, yet there were six short priced winners: $1.80 Classie Brigade; $1.70 Field Marshall, $2.10 Bordeaux, $1.60 Harriet of Mot, $1.20 Locharburn and $1.60 Costa Del Magnifico. 
 

my thoughts exactly, why should they get the benefit of seeing nominations. If they can't nominate on time they don't get a start

who went way to hard on royal kate and compounded

Possible tired yesterday from trying to an advance  3 wide after a 41 lead time and first half in a minute on thursday Surely the driver could've felt that they were going pretty fast as trying to improve on those sort of sectionals was effectively ruining any chance speak up had? I know punters that back the ones that sat back were very happy. Not to sure about a few trainers and owners of the horses would've been tho.
But  if the amatuers really want to be accepted having a driver suspended or fined nearly every race they have (in the north anyway ) isn't a good look and certainly doesnt help .I don't know if it would work but maybe if they got a few senior drivers in one day and kinda went thru a few things it could  help lift the standards and or understanding of races better. They amatuers are here to stay and all fairness to them good on them but they should possible ask for help or guidence to help make there races not look like they have no idea . 

YOU have dragged me into your nonsense with slurs about what I don't know. Ok,I will play your game.
YOU are 100% narcissist.
YOU were scathing toward 1000 winning drives man Clark Barron who is fiercely competitive. You claim his handing up to his stablemate while driving hot favourite All Jokes Aside was blatant team driving and he is the reason harness racing is going down the plughole. You completely disregarded the fact All Jokes Aside had run a hard first half and needed a breather. The horse he handed up to had begun well and was right on All Jokes Aside's back when that runner challenged for the front. All Jokes Aside clearly needed a lung full of air. If Clark hadn't handed up,he would be the first trainer I can recall who refused to hand up to a stablemate and engaged in a speed duel. It would also have likely cost All Jokes Aside second placing. What Barron did was prudent and sensible in my opinion. The horse he handed up to Flight deck then ran a close second twice in a row behind Annajodi and the highly regarded Bernie Winkle. The only horse that beat All Jokes Aside home that day is the highly rated Galactic Star who has now had four starts for two wins and two seconds. He is a future star who will no doubt win plenty. How anyone can see what unfolded there as stable driving is totally beyond me. To then state the drive is why harness racing is a spent force is bewildering. For your claims to have been made by an alleged driver is just off the charts.
http://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gas/wa/r/infohorsewahr/wsd01x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=218414
 
YOU are scathing toward Jay Abernathy again on the favourite River Emperor stating he gifted the victory to his brother Sailesh and only got stuck into his own drive after the race was over. I find this claim absolutely absurd and displays a very high level of ignorance seldom seen even with the worst complaints on this website. It's a totally unwarranted and cowardly slur on both the Abernathy boys that devalues this entire website. It undermines every input we all make on here. The only thing it does prove however is how you are 100% ignorant of what it's like to drive a harness horse. You attack drivers integrity from the shadows like a coward. You constantly try and embellish the merit of your own utter crap input yet refuse to give your correct name so everyone can look at your own alleged drives. It's my contention that you are either 1) a blatant liar about your own credentials or 2) you are a small ignorant punter of favourites or 3) you are a faceless coward who attacks people anonymously or 4) all of the above.
I feel Pay Me Sush and Sailesh was going very well in the trail behind Jay, so well in fact he didn't wait for the passing lane in the straight. That is a sure sign a horse is going extra. Jay has driven long enough to know when a horse challenging him for the victory is going much better than him as very obviously Pay Me Sush was.
Jay pulled the plugs early in the run home. He was hopeful of victory. Pay Me Sush comes off his back and goes alongside and past him. Jay knew he had no hope whatsoever of holding the winner out regardless of who was driving it. Getting stuck into his horse to try and hold out the winner was 100% pointless. Only a sadistic and ignorant novice would have done so hoping to beat Pay Me Sush. Then Jay noticed Jericho Road coming on his inside challenging him for second placing and then Golden Billion on his outside also challenging him for second. Jay felt and rightly so, he had a fair shot at retaining second so reminded his horse that it was a race. He retained second placing. I'm 100% certain Jay Abernathy achieved the best possible result on his drive under the circumstances. I challenge any driver in the world to view the replay below and say different.  If I was the owner of River Emperor I would have been 100% satisfied with Jay's drive. The horses two runs since have produced a third and a fourth.
 
http://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gas/wa/r/infohorsewahr/wsd01x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=221225
 
Then we note that every time another Race Cafe member speaks about an aspect of harness racing they are not enjoying you are quickly on here to rubbish them. You invariably do so in a personal manner attacking their "ignorance". They are either "away with the fairies" or "have no idea" or "pathetic". It's unmistakable that you sincerely believe you are the ONLY person on here qualified to critique a drive or an aspect of harness racing not being embraced. A true narcissist. No doubt now you've had an exchange with Tim Vince on here you will go elsewhere and inform everyone "you are great personal friends with your colleague who is a leading Northern trainer"   
I prefer to deal in facts so I will examine what you've stated. You said "are you so addicted to gambling,could you not give the amateur drivers race a miss" Do you actually read people's input on here before coming on and talking shit? I already stated I take three bets at a meeting. They are on the three trebles. I usually bet about $30 on each treble. No great shakes but I do ok with my bet type. If I give the amateur drivers race a miss I will be flagging away 33% of my nights bets. I will also be ignoring horses in the later legs of that treble that I've been following. Why should I have to do that? I work hard for my money and I don't like betting it on races I don't support as tote races. Why? If you read through the stewards reports and watch replays of almost every amateur driver race you will know why. Cheree Wigg is just one of a long list of examples. I choose to bet on professional drivers. They are less than perfect at times also but they are at least competent enough to make a career out of it. 
If you want to wager on amateur driver races then good for you. I would expect however if you have even half a brain that if you are going to make a complete cowardly arse of yourself complaining about Clark Barron and Jay Abernathy etc etc you will at least be consistent and subject Cheree Wigg to at least the same level of scathing,ridicule and personal attacks on their integrity etc.
I believe these amateur driver races are way too often an embarrassing shambles. Even a strong advocate for them Tim Vince described Wigg's drive on his horse Hadrian (by Julius Caesar,as is River Emperor) as TERRIBLE and deserving of the four month suspension she received.
Why in Gods name does how many Tim Vince has in work have any relevance? Nobody is attacking his stance. We are just using Race Cafe in a positive way to share differing opinions on the same subject.
How many do I have in work? Why is that? Does that give my opinion more or less merit. I'm not presenting my perspective as that as an owner / trainer / driver like the magnificent Johnevensryan who trains 65 horses,owns 134 horses and has driven 3000 winners all around the world.
Ok I will make a deal with you. I will tell you the modest horses that I've owned or part owned previously that have won a total of 21 races between them since 1992. I will also give you the details of the horses that I'm presently involved with that have won three races between them. I will also share with you all the horses my family have been involved in since 1970 that have won around 44 races in total between them all.  What I seek from you in return is integrity and a determination to finally avoid being a coward in the shadows. All I require is your real name to validate all the bullshit claims you make on here along with one winning drive you've had in a tote race. Name of horse,racetrack and date is fine.
I'm prepared to donate $1000 to the SPCA if you provide this CORRECT information. Why am I so sure you won't? Because of four reasons.
1) YOU are a narcissist.
2) YOU are a blatant liar.
3) YOU are a coward.
4) You have enough intelligence to know the moment you open up yourself to scrutiny everyone on this site will conclusively know just how pathetic you really are and you will no longer be able to anonymously attack people with integrity exactly like a faceless coward in the shadows.  
The one remaining question now is what excuse will you reach for to once again avoid showing integrity?  
 

We can't  all be drivers such as yourself John but I have watched enough races in my time to know that when a trailer comes off the back of the leader well before the passing lane instead of waiting for it generally it means they are traveling well better than the leader. Now I'm sure jay must have had a fair idea the trailer was travelling better than he was and was always going to out sprint his charge so rather than hitting the horse when a difference was not going to be made he waited until the use of the whip helped hold a horse he could hold out with a bit of use with stick.

We can't  all be drivers such as yourself John but I have watched enough races in my time to know that when a trailer comes off the back of the leader well before the passing lane instead of waiting for it generally it means they are traveling well better than the leader. Now I'm sure jay must have had a fair idea the trailer was travelling better than he was and was always going to out sprint his charge so rather than hitting the horse when a difference was not going to be made he waited until the use of the whip helped hold a horse he could hold out with a bit of use with stick.

Quinella with the brothers paid nicely apparently 
 The ten hits jay had to gave his one to cross the leader shows that the front wasn't just going to be given to him 

Quinella with the brothers paid nicely apparently 
 The ten hits jay had to gave his one to cross the leader shows that the front wasn't just going to be given to him 

Good spotting. If I was a big punter and wanted to put 20k on at 1.25 to make a very easy 5k profit would the NZ TAB accept my bet? or would they let me have the first 1k at 1.25 and the other 19k on at 1.02? Would be handy if they were obligated to accept bets at quoted price.

I don't think he's a good or bad driver. I think he's somewhere in the middle. But he's carving out a niche as an ultra aggressive one and that will certainly win him supporters (and detractors) and drives. I'm sure he wouldn't still be the driver for Stonewall Stud if he didn't drive the way he is told to. 
Good luck to him.

I  wasn't aware that drivers had to drive there horses in a way to help any others(favorites) ?the orange agent had every possible chance an wasn't good enough on the night

From what I've seen off the gate from most of theses mares I'd suggest spirit and desire would be the quickest out of the gate of them all. Better be amazed can fly the gate and didnt go close to even heading her left alone cross to the front.She lead easily without having to be urged. Im pretty sure god forbid going back didn't help spirit and desire run they was she did.
 Why would a driver of a $120 odd shot try and go forward to end up park in what probably always going to be run in 2:40 ish. As it was god forbid drops back finds the fence ends up 3 fence behind the 3rd and 4th place horses without using much energy and still drops out at the 500m  . Why would the driver attempt to go forward knowing full well they probabaly end up parked on a 2:40 pace  and then risk stopping and getting in the way from 800 out. (Ideal success  was a perfect example of a horse being driven tough in a race that was he clearly outclassed in. He ended up 3wide from the 1400 and was stopping at he 800 inconveniencing besotted Ohoka punter and  Smolda and very vital part of the race. )
Lead time 42.4 first quarter 33.2 first quarter is very slow for this class of horses. If Maurice moves at the 1800 meters he possibly ends up parked without having Venus Serena making him work hard and maybe the result changes . I doubt it would've but maurice had plenty of time when they were walking to get into the race instead he waited till the 1400 and then have natalie tactically drive the very best race sectionals  she couldve to make it too hard for T O A to peg her back. 
Clearly you rate the orange agent the very best and she most probably is but she got beaten by a better horse driver and draw at the end of the day no matter how you want to word your dissapointed  she got beaten and you were wrong and clearly don't like being wrong. But to say one driver  blocked her at the start  to allow a $80 fresh up shot have and easy lead which she was going to have anyway from the draws shows your clearly a disgruntled punter. 

Who cares about your insightful and accurate perspective of a race .Quote." She will win for fun"  "Xmas bonus money for old rope".
You picked it wrong ,just admit it in a short notation and get on with it. Stop trying to weazle yourself out of a deepening hole mate.
Geeze you must amuse some on here.

I  wasn't aware that drivers had to drive there horses in a way to help any others(favorites) ?the orange agent had every possible chance an wasn't good enough on the night

I  wasn't aware that drivers had to drive there horses in a way to help any others(favorites) ?the orange agent had every possible chance an wasn't good enough on the night

I  wasn't aware that drivers had to drive there horses in a way to help any others(favorites) ?the orange agent had every possible chance an wasn't good enough on the night

I am happy with the drop back system but not the penalty free wins system which is why I refuse to breed again as long as they look after the top end.

There should be two c1 grades one only for horses that have won a maiden race or just one race in its life ,  the other c1 grade for drop back types and horses who have won more than 1 race like penalty free win races. That way any maiden that finally wins pretty much races horses they have been racing against in maidens. Programme one of each every single week and never mix them up. If theres two maiden races on average a race night and only 1 of the lesser c1 grade more and more horses will be available for that race. So it should be no trouble getting those races  of the ground. 

What about a damn good excuse in the last race.   Down to a walk last 200m and apparently nothing wrong with it.  Yeah right.  Not even a warning. Farcical in my opinion.    As for the hitting wheel penalties. If you have followed this issue, trust me I have, you fill find there are some rules for some and some rules for others, especially south of the waitaki.

There should be two c1 grades one only for horses that have won a maiden race or just one race in its life ,  the other c1 grade for drop back types and horses who have won more than 1 race like penalty free win races. That way any maiden that finally wins pretty much races horses they have been racing against in maidens. Programme one of each every single week and never mix them up. If theres two maiden races on average a race night and only 1 of the lesser c1 grade more and more horses will be available for that race. So it should be no trouble getting those races  of the ground. 

So the latest one is Sammy the Bull his form since he last won is 4229544504.
He has got stake money in 6 of the 10 start since his last win and won between 3 and 4k. Where is the fairness in this for the poor c1 horses that he drops back this week and oh my he finds himself in a penalty free race against c1s. If he wins they get to line up again in c1s. If there is to be a drop back system then it should only be assessed on 10 unplaced runs which would mean Sammy the Bull would still have at least 6 starts to go. Why should horses be allowed to run placing's earning stake money and still get the benefit of dropping back a class. Also have a look at the replay. BD McLellan only got serious on this horse when it became apparent he had know chance of winning the race.