fitzy

The TAB needs to take advatnage of and give these Lions supporters something to have a bet on. How about something like 
which city will have the most sunshine hours on the 30th of June this year
Auckland - $1.08
Birmingham - $ 1.85
Manchester - $2.40
Glasgow - $ 3.70

a lot of Nashwan about him

No disrespect intended to you Bruce or Mongolian Khan but given the record of the respective Sirelines and pedigrees Preferment looks cheap at only $2500 more than MK.
A son of Zabeel would have my vote over a son of HRE any day, especially given the horses relatively similar race records at 3 and 4.

None In the top 20 at the moment but the real question is how many group one winning Australasian raced stayers have recently gone to stud in NZ? I can't think of one but then again I am forgetful. But I suppose I'm saying that if they haven't been going to stud, how can there be a presence. I can't believe it. Since we've been importing sprinter/ milers, our breeding has not been able to compete with the Aussies. Sure we get the odd good horse, but not at the frequency or consistency that we did in the past.
Not long ago in the UK (and here) everyone was convinced that English Derby winners didn't have a place at stud any more because they weren't fast enough due to the "modern breed" needing more speed. Then along came Galileo (a failure downunder), Montjeu (need I say more) and High Chaparral (shame he died early). That blew that notion out of the water with all horses capable of producing a nice two year old.
The reason why the Derby is a breed shaping race is that a horse that wins that race must be mature at the beginning of its three year old career. That's why running the NZ Derby in March is bollocks. We need to know who that really good three year old colt is as an early 3yo. Here in New Zealand that was lost because we can't/ never did/ weren't capable of getting enough colts to the classic race. We gelded everything. Now a colt is worth a lot so the game has potentially changed....are we brave enough to change it back again. If you don't get racing purists making the rules of the game, how can you get racing going properly. Just imagine if you said that the head of team NZ was to be an accountant, the head of NZRB an ex policeman and that the players in the boat were not sailors. We'd be fucked in the America's Cup. For heavens sake, those blokes have everyone in NZ buzzing. Why can't anyone see what you have to do in this industry to get it right. This stallion caper is just another example of inadequate thought in respect of horses and the future of NZ. BruceL....you are wrong. We need more stayers, both on the stallions and mares side, but the recipe needs to include early maturing stayers..
My real fear is the depressing reduction of potency in the NZ brand. We used to have 4 stallions in the top ten on the Aussie sires lists. right now we have not one in the top 20.....NOT ONE!!!
Is that not a wake up call?!?! So what have the Aussies done?....they've bought into the concept of standing more stayers at stud. Over the years that blood will come through and nail us.
So to Preferment...is he a good chance at $12,500? It would be very tough to go past him as a chance.

Good points Nasrullah.
It was only ever meant to be a "fun with numbers" exercise and not a full-blown study. You guys aren't paying me enough for that ;-)

Theres nothing wrong with Ruakaka,a great course.As was my $14 quaddie outlay,for 10% of the quaddie.And both trainers through the $23 2nd leg out.They should race there every day,lol.

You cant be serious, the Flemington track has been dreadful since the Spring.
The track bias was so bad at the Autumn carnival (Aus Gns and Aus Cup) that nothing that didn't draw inside 6 and run on pace had any hope of winning.
Michelle Payne called him out and rightly so.

You cant be serious, the Flemington track has been dreadful since the Spring.
The track bias was so bad at the Autumn carnival (Aus Gns and Aus Cup) that nothing that didn't draw inside 6 and run on pace had any hope of winning.
Michelle Payne called him out and rightly so.

Nerula they are horses not cars. Some will run handy, others need 300-400 m to warm up so to speak.
Would Kiwi have been the horse he was if he had been taught to jump and run, who knows but I say probably not. Not even Winx jumps and runs, it's always 1/2 way round before she joins in.
TJ Smith won thousands of races by teaching his horses to run handy, but he probably ruined as many horses who didn't have at he ability to do what he wanted.
Chataqua showed yesterday that despite the bias if your good enough they come from anywhere to win.

Nerula they are horses not cars. Some will run handy, others need 300-400 m to warm up so to speak.
Would Kiwi have been the horse he was if he had been taught to jump and run, who knows but I say probably not. Not even Winx jumps and runs, it's always 1/2 way round before she joins in.
TJ Smith won thousands of races by teaching his horses to run handy, but he probably ruined as many horses who didn't have at he ability to do what he wanted.
Chataqua showed yesterday that despite the bias if your good enough they come from anywhere to win.

Chevy small technical detail but Montjeu did unfortunately die in March 2012.
Bit difficult to shuttle him after that ................

Chevy small technical detail but Montjeu did unfortunately die in March 2012.
Bit difficult to shuttle him after that ................

you mean you couldn't give 2 Chitt's 

Midget the withdrawal rate has been consistent at circa 80% in each of the last 3 years.

Chevy in my experience "enforcing" as explained by Jeepers is a myth.
It would be illegal. The last cases of AI in thoroughbreds led to the individuals being banned I think for life 20 + years ago.
There are legal drugs which can be given to mares to make sure they ovulate shortly after being served. I suspect that's what Jeepers is actually referring to.
Agree there were rumours about Zephyr Bay in the 80's.

Chevy in my experience "enforcing" as explained by Jeepers is a myth.
It would be illegal. The last cases of AI in thoroughbreds led to the individuals being banned I think for life 20 + years ago.
There are legal drugs which can be given to mares to make sure they ovulate shortly after being served. I suspect that's what Jeepers is actually referring to.
Agree there were rumours about Zephyr Bay in the 80's.

So socialism may be dead in the rest of the economy but its great to see some in the racing industry is keen to keep it alive.
I'm not for one second defending the NZRB performance but how does cutting stakes from the top to make minor increases to maiden and R65 horses make sense? Yes $250k for a glorified highweight is excessive but what other chance do handicappers have to earn a fair stake under the current rating system? Are we as an industry better off if Savaria is sold to some big Aussie breeder and JimmyMac is sold to race Aus as well because they cant earn any decent money here?
The first fact plain and simple is that any horse only capable of winning 1 or 2 races are never ever going to get close to breakeven. They will always lose money, maybe just a bit less.
The second fact which should be obvious is that if you have a better quality horse it needs to be able to race for better money. Why you ask - cause if you cant then the obvious alternative is to sell the horse to Aus or Asia and take the profit (or cost recovery).
The net result of cutting stakes from the top to prop up the loss makers at the bottom is that the quality of racing declines as a whole due to most of the better horses being sold offshore.
There is no doubt the industry needs to radically change its cost structures and operating models if it is to survive but cutting stakes at the top isn't moving the deck chairs on the Titanic its altering course to head straight for the iceberg.
 

Gubes, why be political with your "typical Tory" comment? Do you remember Annette King? Or, perhaps any of the other past  Racing Ministers from either side of politics? What about the guy from the West Coast (can't remember his name), all smiley but no progressive change. They are all the same and leave the Racing Industry to itself. To be run by NZRB and NZTR etc. The Industry is it's own worst enemy. Run (excuse the term) by successive self interested, incapable people who have no idea how to go about change. The escalation in costs within these organisations without any worthwhile corresponding growth in return in growth to the participants is, In itself, a disaster. Then there's the infrastructure. Meanwhile, in Australia, there's genuine change going on. Upgrades to tracks, new training centres established, etc. Sure, there will always be challenges such as race day attendance in the modern era. My son loves a punt and the races. He went to Turnbull Stakes day, MC day and Emirates Stakes day. He'll probably get one more in - in any year. But with 2 kids and an FBM ( friggin big mortgage) a demanding job etc, that's it. The TV replays provide the rest. Someone please outline the "major" CHANGES that have occurred in NZ Racing over the last 5 - 10 years (apart from less races, less horse numbers, etc). List them in order. Maybe the Chairman of NZRB or The CEO of NZTR could be brave and come on this site and do that? Just in case everyone has missed something. Why don't they send a delegation to Australia (NSW and Vic specifically) and get them to write down everything that has changed over the last 5 years in those States, to improve returns to the participants and enable improvements to infrastructure? Forget, China, HK, Japan, Ascot, The Arc. Stay in our own region and find out what it takes to get REAL CHANGE. Then go back home and get work. If they're not prepared to do that then they should P off. The Govt has to be involved and is a key part of any change, because it's going to take an investment that, ultimately, will result in rising sustainable employment in the industry and that's a social benefit as well. The clock's approaching midnight and it won't stop ticking..............

Interesting biff. Probably the smartest man in NZ Racing said to me a few years ago
"No one gets into racing expecting to make money, but they all get our because it costs too much..."
Very true I think.

Interesting biff. Probably the smartest man in NZ Racing said to me a few years ago
"No one gets into racing expecting to make money, but they all get our because it costs too much..."
Very true I think.

Interesting biff. Probably the smartest man in NZ Racing said to me a few years ago
"No one gets into racing expecting to make money, but they all get our because it costs too much..."
Very true I think.

El Hermano is at 1.5% SW to runners.
Zed is at 5.9% SW to runners.
Keep an eye out for Zed's biggest and best crop which are currently 2 yo. Has 125 living 2 yo foals. They will make an impact as they get older.
The blood of Zabeel really works well!

I met Phil Bull many moons ago. We ended up doing business with Timeform. In my humble opinion he was right. There have been a squillion squllionaires who have listened to, and invested in, the thoroughbred industry on the advice of so called "breeding experts with an edge". The problem is that it never really works out to be an advantage and this could be one of the reasons why.
It all started when some spied the Akhal Teke or the "Golden Horse" They have a reputation for speed and endurance, intelligence, and a distinctive metallic sheen. The shiny coat of palominos and buckskins led to their nickname "Golden Horses".These horses are adapted to severe climatic conditions and are thought to be one of the oldest existing horse breeds. There are currently about 6,600 Akhal-Tekes in the world, mostly in Turkmenistan and Russia, although they are also found throughout Europe and North America.
There are several theories regarding the original ancestry of the Akhal-Teke, some dating back thousands of years. The tribes of Turkmenistan selectively bred the horses, recording their pedigrees orally and using them for raiding. The breed was used in the losing fight against the Russian Empire, and was subsumed into the Empire along with its country. The Akhal-Teke has influenced many other breeds, including several Russian breeds and in particular the thoroughbred industry. There has been extensive crossbreeding with the Thoroughbred to create a fast, long-distance racehorse and as a result all Akhal-Tekes are a Thoroughbred ancestor. The studbook was closed in 1932. The Russians printed the first stud book for the breed in 1941, including over 700 horses.
The thoroughbred industry started with 4 stallions and 40 broodmares, all from the breed. One stallion died and can be eliminated. One of these stallions. Bryerly Turk, was captured at the Battle of Buda (1686) (or possibly the Battle of Vienna), either by Byerley or another, and sent to England. He definitely served as Captain Byerley's war horse when he was dispatched to Ireland in 1689 during King William's War and saw further military service in the Battle of the Boyne.
The Byerley Turk was reportedly a dark brown or black horse of unknown origins, but described in historic accounts as an Arabian. At the time, Turkish horses were described as descended from " those of Arabia or Persia", but stated that they were longer in the body and of a larger size.He was described as a horse of elegance, courage and speed.
 On the path to the creation of the "thoroughbred", certain corrupt practises introduced additional polluted genetics. The benefit of Emmiline Hill's DNA research has now confirmed the scope of the genetic pool, which by most accounts has remained genetically stagnant. So from this group, with a few pollutants, we have been mixing and matching that small genetic window in the attempt to breed the champion. It is interesting to note that very few World records are being created in recent year and many of the experts put this down to the breed having reached its genetic potential. In fact many pundits are saying that the breed is now in a degenerative state (i.e. they are actually slowing down). The concept of Frankel is an interesting one in that despite improved racing services, chemistry and technology, despite this horse winning as he liked, he didn't challenge any track or age group records. That is why his historic World rating is a bit hollow to the purists.
So to the theorists of breeding pattern advantages....there is no statistical data that would suggest that on genetic breeding alone, any thoroughbred horse breeding pattern group has a predictability to it. Sad but true.

Had forgotten this thread - what a gem.
Where's Henri these days - maybe he could update us on the feats of Indy King .........

I'm surprised some wag hasn't said Matamata, everyone gets "high" there don't they ?