TARANTULA

That would be the polite interpretation!

Five Million Dollars!!!!
That's the LOSS this season from racing at Alexandra Park, this was the result of HRNZ funding the ATC racing to the tune of $10 million.
They probably won't mention this figure at their meeting today, it will be all about the $84m owed to Westpac, and the Directors desire to have members approval to sell what ever they want, for what ever they can get, with out further reference to members.
JMK has ruled out the sale of Alexandra Park, so there will be no discussion on that, which is ridiculous, any competent Board would have ALL options on the table for consideration, when you have debts of this magnitude.
 
 

Before Entain came in we know that NZTR were pretty much insolvent , they arrived and threw LOTTO amounts of money around with the largest amount going to NZTR . 
So with this current situation the thing I can't get my head around I, is this , if this was your business and you had run it into the position of insolvency and someone comes along and gives you a large cash injection , wouldn't you make sure you change the way you had been running the company to ensure you didn't get into that position again ???
It seems to me , and I may well just be completely wrong , but they appear to have just chucked some of the windfall at buying mountains of glitter and tried to dress up the turd , wouldn't you try and change some of the business model that got you into the trouble , ask some experts to analyze your business and find some real world solutions ? Make significant changes to the way it was done , try something different .
So instead they have fundamentally changed nothing other than throw money at big races and invented/copied another couple of big name races , meanwhile the parts of your business that actually weren't hurting your business you put in a folder and put in the drawer . 
Maybe it's just me , but I know it's not , I believe the whole way we run our industry needs a complete overhaul , calendar , programming , stakes , track management , industry participant involvement , and countless other things . But no , they just keep following the same path .
Now do we blame the current management , or the previous , or the one previous to that , how many of them really knew the NZ racing industry and could come in with knowledge to change things significantly , it's like the John Messara thing , what did he really know about NZ racing , no more than what he was told .
Until this changes I have no faith that the industry ailments improve . You have to understand the problems to fix them , and throwing money at the top end isn't going to fix anything and shows how little they truly understand the base problems .
 

I'm sure your figures are much more accurate than mine Leggy. My calculations were very much back of the envelope  stuff, with quite a bit of averaging. I don't have the time to add up the exact numbers of meetings involved etc. My numbers were based on the following:
I worked on $12,000 per 8 race card during the summer months to get to $20,000 minimums and $24,000 per 8 race card at winter meetings. I figured this might cost in the vicinity of $2.9-$3m over the course of the year.
To fund this I suggested getting rid of the twilight bonus which currently costs $52,000 per meeting. Over say 20 meetings this would save just over $1m.
I would then suggest knocking $500,000 each off the 3yo sweepstake and the slot. I don't know the exact figures, but a lot of the slot stake is funded by the industry not the slot holders. That would save another $1m.
I would also knock $250,000 each off the Oaks, Derby, 4yo race and Bonecrusher. All $1m+ races. That saves another $1m.
Then there are at least 10 other races that could easily have $100,000 each knocked off them without anyone noticing and without any affect on the field quality. I refer to races like the Group 2 Levin Classic currently $400,000, Herbie Dyke, $700,000, HB 2,000m WFA currently $550,000. I am not suggesting knocking any Group 1 back below $400,000.
In addition to the above there are also the endless bonuses like the Legarto bonus which aren't included in advertised stakes. I haven't delved into them, but I would scrap the lot, probably saving another $1m, which could be used to boost the West Coast New Year races.
That is a total of $4m savings, $5m if you include the bonuses, to fund the $3m needed to bring minimums all year round up to $20,000.
I could well be a few hundred thousands out, but I do have a day job and I don't have the resources that NZTR have to fine turn the exact figures. And I might modestly suggest that even if I am a few hundred thousand out I haven't made as a big a cock up of the whole show as NZTR has over the last few years.

Just wanted to let everyone know we lost one of our  best members to Huntingtons disease on Friday.
Joan or D Burrows (Joan) as she was known here was always one of our best tipsters and competed in all our comps over the years often being successful, bit always right ups near the top end.
Joan and husband Darryl were lifelong soulmates for over 54 years and Darryl had been her care giver in recent years.Together they have bred and raced many successful horses over the years and loved doing this together.
I just wanted to take the time to let Darryl know we are all thinking of him here at this sad time, and we will honor Joan with a Spring competition in her memory.
Fly high Joan you now are free of the pain after the horrible disease and we know you will always be watching over Darryl helping him to hopefully find some winners.
Thoughts with Darryl, his friends and family at this time, may Joan forever RIP.

The total number of race days and race numbers is probably ok. It is the distribution that is wrong. The continual 4, 5 and 6 horse fields in the NI while horses are continually balloted and eliminated in the SI is, to put it frankly, a disgrace.
I don't know if everyone is aware, but this horrible looking meeting at New Plymouth today has the highest minimum stakes of the entire winter. NZTR budgeted $100,000 to boost all stakes at this meeting in addition to the $110,000 they put into the Cup. They have saved a few dollars with there being no interest in the $60,000 race and being only just able to scrape up enough horses for 7 races.
For some reason New Plymouth has more meetings with random boosted stakes curtesy of NZTR than any other track in the country. For a club that races on a very ordinary track that they don't even own, and invariably on wet conditions, they seem to be the favourite child of NZTR.

That is the biggest problem trying to make an informed decision regarding this sort of thing, we just have no idea what turnovers are.
Many years ago the low grade meetings always used to run at a profit and the excess was used to help fund the flash meetings. Now, it sounds like all meetings run at a loss, and especially the flash meetings which need massive subsidisation. We don't really get any information regarding the breakdown of how stakes are funded.
It almost sounds like a ponzi scheme these days, with industry income bearing very little relationship to industry expenditure.

It's something I have always been keen on .
Believe it or not before I got my first job at a thoroughbred stud I actually talked to Charlie Hunter about a job and he said he didn't have anything but would ask around , nothing came of it but I often wonder what might have been .
I have always followed it , right back in the days of Captain Harcourt , Noodlum , and my favorites back then Scottish Lustre and Trusty Scott .
And I actually looked up the Woodlands stud website a couple of weeks ago to see if they were doing any horses .

Agree with all of that , especially the bonus thing , doesn't have to be that but something has to be done . We need fresh ideas .
As for lower stakes affecting the group status , the group status is an illusion , a G1 here is a G1 in name only , it holds no real legitimacy in the world racing .
I don't think those at the top believe we will run out of owners or horses , maybe not completely but another 20% of both could make it interesting .
I know you say you are finishing up , I'm the same , 2 to go , and others here are thinking the same .
I know of one couple who breed 3/4 every year and currently have 3/4 in training and are seriously looking at giving it away , more so after some of the media releases last week .
So in our small circle that's a few owners and horses missing , increase that exponentially through the whole industry and 20% might end up being light .

Big topic and where to start . I like most on here and from talking to other racing people feel that there should be a more even share of the distribution and that the current situation of huge high end stakes is achieving nothing , certainly not improving the quality of these fields nor increase the numbers in those races .
We have a limited number of top quality horses , for obvious reasons , attrition from yearling sales , RTR sale and of course the high numbers sold from trials and race performance severely curtail the number of top quality horses left here to race . Yet again we see both our leading 3yo's heading off shore to new owners yet still I see nothing coming out of head quarters on a solution to this .
I have always believed that in anything , you work to the cut of your cloth , and in this instance IMO the top end races need to top out at 350k . So G1s 350k , G2s 200k , G3s 140k and listed 100k . I should add and this will be a topic for another thread , but the amount of Black Type races should be greatly reduced , there are far too many BT races that simply don't stack up , we continue deluding ourselves that our racing is stronger than it is , it's time to get realistic .
This above stakes won't change the quantity or quality of horses competing , IMO it won't drive these horses to race overseas because of this , if they're good enough they will be going anyway and in many instances these horses considered good enough often go straight over , i.e. the TA horses this spring .
I haven't got figures on what this might save but as WD said along with stopping this subsidizing of sales races there should be a substantial amount of extra money available to top up the lower tier racing , which is the racing that underpins our whole industry , the vast majority of turnover comes from our everyday racing and the owners that support that end of our industry deserve more reward and it may well keep a lot more in racing horses . It also gives these owners some respect that they are contributing to the industry . I don't live with this if the horse isn't good enough and your not happy , get out , in the past that's what many have been told and done exactly that , hence our shortage of owners , and yet again I don't see a real push to rectify this within NZTR .
For what it's worth I'm a believer in a fair shake for everybody , I believe that if someone is prepared to put money into a racehorse and the associated costs then they are contributing to the industry producing a product , no product , no industry , and even if they have a poor horse and they are racing it then he should be rewarded for that , even if it is only the current $150 for not running in the top 5 , that owner should feel that the industry respects his efforts . Most owners go in knowing that getting a top horse is slim but live in the hope that they will get lucky . So we need to show them hey you didn't get lucky this time but don't walk away , have another crack , and we don't help that by having lower end stakes that are poor .
I would like to see a minimum stake starting with a 2 , preferably 25k or at least working toward that figure quickly , then going up 5k per grade , 30k for R65 , 35k for R75 , 40k for R85 and 50k for open races . And of course increasing over time . Now I haven't try to work the figures and someone will say it's not sustainable , maybe , but this should be an aim in quick time .
Now to help with those figures I believe something has to change with the amount of races we have , of poor quality and numbers , so I would propose we either reduce race days , which clearly Entain wouldn't be up for or reduce the number of races we have on a card , the large number of races we have with single figure runners has grown exponentially over the last few seasons . One thing that would help in sorting programming would be NZTR having a register of horses in work where trainers have to , as in required to maintain where horses are at in their preparation . We don't have Australian numbers so this or something like shouldn't be hard . Or maybe it will .
I have stated many times that I believe the strength of any sport is the strength of it's base . When I first got into the industry back in '82 the base was huge , but has slowly eroded . Well currently IMO the whole pyramid has been flipped on it's head and is rocking perilously , and close to tipping over .
 Now I have mentioned above the ratings 65, 75 etc , but I think something needs to change there as well , and I'll post my thoughts on that later .

I will put down one of my biggest bugbears , why does there have to be an off peak season where stakes are lowered ?
Nothing else goes down at this time of the year , training fees , jockey fees , transport costs , farriers , or anything else that the mug owner has to shell out for , so why do people paying to have their horses trained and race at this time of year not get the same stakes .

Just a few random basics to get things started. If I ruled the world my start point would be minimum stakes of $20,000 all year round for industry meetings with open races at those meetings running for $25,000.
The winter stakes at the $35,000/$40,000 meetings I don't really mind as we are usually getting 4,5 and 6 horse fields for open races at those meetings in the NI as it is. However I would extend those stakes to some meetings throughout the summer as well. Some of those meetings would be upgraded industry meetings, others would be downgraded $40,000/$50,000 days. And the 40/50 days I would extend to the winter months to a few feature meetings, perhaps 15 or 16 such meetings through the winter.
I would scrap the $25,000 twilight stakes as they do nothing to boost fields. I would save additional money for redistribution by reducing the 3yo sweepstake back to $1m. I would also knock $250,000 off each of the Derby, Oaks and that 4yo race. Also quite a few of the Group 1s being run for weird stakes like $550,000 could all come back to $400,000. They would attract the same fields.
That's just a start. I will have some more ideas. My suggestions above would be cost neutral given the reductions to some unnecessary stakes.

Thanks to everybody for their contributions to the first part of this series about venues , much better than I expected and proves to me yet again there are many passionate and knowledgeable people on here and within racing , and the powers that be are missing a trick by not engaging more with industry participants .
On this thread how do you think the amount set aside for funding stakes should be distributed , and a large part of this is how our racing should be structured , I don't think you can discuss one without the other . 
Do we keep our current rating/class system and the amount of money that goes to the top end ? or should there be fundamental changes to both ?
I will keep my powder dry and let others have their say first .

And makes sense in many ways.
However, as a spectacle it is as boring as bat shit, punters struggle to get a handle on the form because whoever drove the tractor at what speed determines the going which varies all the time.
And make no mistake, however much importance each sector group thinks they have, without the punter we're fucked.   Drive them away - like we've been doing for decades  -  and we may as well send our beautiful horses eventing.

TBH Pam everything should be getting done in alignment , I don't know how they can make changes without looking at things like demographics related to the industry/sport , both within and outside the industry .
Maybe I'm just over it but I don't believe they give a shit about community involvement , and that includes the racing community . They just pass right over any sort of community input .

This thread, initiated by Nomates,  is about venues.   Some great ideas and the ensuing discussion is terrific.   Well done to all. 
But all the brainstorming about venues is to little avail if the sustainability issues aren't addressed.  Selling property and re-jigging the existing structures isn't going to work if nobody bothers to go and people aren't betting. 
Sustainability has to be addressed, stakes aligned with betting revenue.  Community involvement is how NZ and Aus racing developed in the two colonies.  England is different with its royal patronage and elite roots, the National Hunt ethos perhaps more aligned to the grassroots participant. 
Take the community out of the mix and NZ racing as we know it is gone.
Address the sustainability and then look at the venues. Once Entains dosh is gone  new flash tracks won't be much use for anything.

Where did I say to dismantle it , what I have said is that it's not what it was .
Cup week works as a party week , keep the cup and the big mile for sure , but the fields , like everywhere else , are getting lighter , fact .
If you go and look at the trainers that used to take big teams down and stay a few years ago compared to recent years , even the trainers that have kept going have reduced numbers Myers and Latta . The northerners don't bother anywhere like they used , and certainly don't stay over . 
And as stakes keep increasing up north the less and less they will go down . Especially once the GNS go north .
Even if you think I'm talking bullshit about the GNS , all I ever hear from within the industry is they want them north . I'm not advocating for it .

Before this venues thread runs out of steam we need to address the elephant in the room, which no one has brought up so far, probably waiting for me to mention it: Timaru.
NZTR has an unhealthy obsession with eliminating Timaru. I have absolutely no idea why they think like this. There is obviously no science behind it. Messara wanted to close Timaru and keep Waikouaiti, which is really just too stupid for words. They can't even sell it and make lots of money as it isn't saleable and the trots are still there and it is a major training centre, probably producing more winners than Wingatui these days.
NZTR are obsessive about centering Canterbury racing around the two Riccarton tracks and Ashburton. It has quickly become obvious how flawed this theory is.
Timaru is a crucial track for the SI given its central location and generally good racing surface, especially now that so many other tracks have been closed. Rather than being slated for closure it needs to have money spent on it.  If I was running the show, the first thing I would do would be to introduce a 1,400m start point at Timaru to give it some flexibility when setting programmes.
With the healthy numbers of horses in Southland, Timaru and Oamaru are crucial tracks to give those horses in the deep south racing opportunities during the winter months if they wish to keep horses going. There is no better evidence of that than this weekend at Oamaru.
Some NZTR decisions are just beyond comprehension and Timaru is one of them.

I am very late to this thread so just catching up, so just bare with me.
I can confidently say the Winter Cup will not go to Trentham. Trentham could not run a piss up in a brewery. Might as well send the Winter Cup to Waimate. Besides the Winter Cup will be a listed race in a year or two. And Trentham has destroyed all of their own black type winter races anyhow.

VENUES DISCUSSION.
RICCARTON……NOW HAS A MONOPOLY ON GALLOPS VENUES IN CHRISTCHURCH,
                           AND ALMOST CANTERBURY.DUAL TRACK.HOW IS THAT GOING?                      
                           With future breeders,horse numbers,finances,stakes,clubs (very valued
                           club Officials and Volunteers) etc,how does the rest of Gallops Venues
                          in the South Island going to look like.
RANGIORA……..OWNERSHIP.PART RICCARTON GALLOPS ,PART HARNESS CLUB.
                           HOPE TO BE SORTED BY THE MASTER PLAN PROJECT STAMINA.
                           Anyone following this over the years needs more stamina than 
                           Bonecrusher.
ALEXANDRA PARK……MORE WILL BE KNOWN ON THIS VENUE WITH AT A CRUCIAL
                          MEETING ON 23 JULY………FINANCES etc.
            More Thoughts Please.Great so far.
 
 
                          
     

                           

Reverting back to topic, venues, first i think as an industry we need to take a step back and decide what we want racing in NZ to look like in the next 10yrs, 20yr, 30yrs.
Some heavy questions need addressing like:
1) Do we race 12 months of the year or do we take a month off in middle of winter (like Hong Kong). A month off would mean we don’t bash up our grass tracks as much, the hard workers in the industry can get some down time, etc
2) Does jumping survive or cut - if so, it has a big impact on venues needed
3) Do we want to compete with Australia, or work in with them, e.g our summer racing calender to be our main focus or not
4) Do we need 2yr old racing before Xmas, or do we condense that until the back 1/2 of the season. 
5) Do we shift to tier racing (like Au) or keep the scatter gun structure we current have
6) What is our priority, Pattern racing or NZB driven sweepstakes style
I feel the biggest reality check that people need to understand is if the industry is to survive, we can’t do what we have always done, and more importantly we can’t do everything. Something drastic needs to change and yes there will be casualties, but it’s reality and we need to redefine what our industry is to be.
 

Some good points Alf.
We knew that punters wanted other “entertainment” over 20 years ago when we introduced new Sports Bar/ Cafe/ Casino and restaurants at Alex Park. This opened the place up 7 days a week rather than the previous race night only. Given the new development there now has stores within it, it does not seem to have translated into better attendance figures does it ? As for selling the Park, it may come to that but the current management will hold on for grim death before that happens, none of them will want that death knell on their CV’s…I couldn’t see a new Pukekohe being of any value (other than to the locals) as if Aucklanders can’t be bothered going to the races in Epsom, why would anyone expect them to travel further out ? Train travel is an anathema to the majority of Aucklanders, so nice idea, but not viable for mine sorry mate.
Ellerslie might be able to do it better ( isn’t there a hotel there now ? ) but it would have to morph into a multi faceted entertainment venue with events on a regular basis so Aucklanders would get used to using the facility regularly for one thing or another.  It takes a bit of guts to do something different. I remember we took on the Blues, Brews and Bar B Q’s concept at the Park one year, knowing we were on a hiding to nothing….promoted it well, had a very good turnout on a lovely day, but we lost money on it ( not a lot ). I lost count of the number of calls we got from people asking if we were going to do it again…those that came loved it and there was no doubt it would have grown year on year as it became better known. Now that could have been great for us, but it was canned and that was that…🙄

Meomy please stay on topic..I will not allow you to hijack a damn good and thoughtful thread...nobobody cares about dogs on chains in this discussion...I appreciate your participation but if its not adding to the TOPIC at hand please leave it somewhere else.

My original post was a stab at what I think would be a workable list of venues that a would support a calander beneficial to the industry.
Just as importantly as 'where', is the 'what'...
I will give input only on Auckland / Franklin in the interest of trying to keep it short. I live in Karaka, so I guess this is my home game so to speak ...
I have said multiple times things need a major shift (no more lipstick on the pig), so here's a range of possible ideas ready to be shot at 😃
Ellerslie - needs to become a destination / attraction for a much wider audience. Add in a Hotel, Apartments, shops, amazing indoor* / outdoor theme park, high end foodcourt, a range of various bars catering to different age groups etc Some of this could be built into the existing structures, the rest developed new.
Done correctly, these are all revenue streams that work intermersed with the Racing functions & requirements
*Dedicate a floor to family amenities - Sunday can be a day out for the whole family with everyone catered for in a safe environment
Add multi level covered carparks and a covered concourse to the nearby rail  (including horse unloading and access through to the track stabling)
Alexandra Park - SOLD
Karaka Sales venue - SOLD
Pukekohe / Franklin - retain the Harness property currently up for sale and use this and the existing Gallops facility to develop a Super Site for racing / training / sales 
Kick the car track to touch
NIGHT Racing options for both codes
Create 3 race tracks and internal training tracks - 1x Turf & 1x Dirt for TB, 1x Dirt or all weather for HR
Either a major overhaul for the existing stand, or demolish it and build entirely new facilities over the rail track (option to switch to left hand tracks, possibly) 
Facilities similar to Ellerslie but with some exclusions and a reduced scale 
Create a new rail Station, again with loading / unloading connections from rail to stabling areas * Te Rapa should also incorporate this facility, linking access for all 3 tracks for horses, trainers, owners & punters
Being able to Taxi to Papakura Train Station, catch a train to Ellerslie or Puke and get onsite out of the weather, have a meal and a few drinks, wagering and being amonst the horses, and then getting home again safely and dry would definitely rekindle my desire to get back on track. 
Hell, it might be far fetched to think it, but maybe if I was a recognised 'loyalty' member, my train and meals and drinks might just be subsidised a little 🧐     
For memory, Winny has Kiwi Rail in his list of responsibilities so it may be time to strike.
Most of this will probably be deemed either too left field and / or not possible, but it's how I would throw my dice to save what in truth, may not be salvageable...

Its bang on, the most forgotten person in racing is the punter, the very reason the sport exists. This forgotten person is going to be the person that also brings racing to its inevitable final days.