RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.

benzracing

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  1. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    Just to take this topic further...and this would form the basis of my argument of genetic relevance. Take the recent Cox Plate winner. Here's his pedigree for reference...NZ$120,000 cost

     
    Sire was a Champion sprinter in 2 hemispheres. Sire of dam a champion US stallion. Grand dam was by Champion European Miler Zilzal (by Champion sire Nureyev. Third dam is champion US filly. There are a lot of 120+ rated horses in this pedigree.
    Unfortunately, nowadays, we don't see many of this sort of pedigree in NZ winners anymore up close in the pedigree.....and although genetically good, this is not absolutely top class
    Take the best we've bred for a while...Verry Elleegent...

     
     
    by Zed (not a good race horse), Dam by Danroad (not a great race horse), 2nd dam by not a good sire) but 5th Dam is Eight Carat, a Daughter of Habibti (champion UK sprinter). So we're missing a few gaps but has some foundation.
    Then we've got Callsign Nav, our latest NZ group 1 winner who is rated 109.


    Atlante beat one of the weakest 2000gns in history, Volksraad good sire in NZ but weren't good enough in Australia, love Royal Academy, love REd Anchor as a racehorse but average sire, then Sostenuto (av horse and stallion), average family
    Now I'm not knocking any of these horses as I'd love to own them but I am talking about thr standard of group 1 races in NZ. Unfortunately the genetics don't supply or support 120+ horses being bred on a regular basis.
    It's actually time to address this but the question is how do you do this?
  2. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    I knew Arthur quite well and had a number of conversations with him about imported mares. As with everything you're only as good as your weakest link. He was trying to buy quite well related mares from the US for buttons. The result was that the mares he was buying were pedigrees without performance nor conformation. Two missing links. US form is very different. If you go to the early 1990's NZ studs had a love affair with American stallions. They came here in their droves....Crested Wave, Racing is Fun, Spectacular Love, Pompeii Court, Mi Preferido, Indian Ore and Defensive Play are a few that drip off my tongue. Patrick even got in the action by buying a half to Ferdinand, Castel Cheline through Moroney and me .Our argument was that if you go after American blood, make sure its the best of the best and drug free. 

  3. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    Prior to Sunday Silence being sent to Japan, a long list of UK Derby winners and broodmares were exported to Japan. In one single year, Japanese owners purchased 46 broodmares from the Keenland sales followed by another 81 the following year. 19 of them were group winners with three being the best of the best. From memory one cost approx $5m. But the others who weren't group winners were seriously related. Then they went to both Ireland and France to raid their coffers. Both Northern Farms and Shadai have been at it. Their aim is to win the Arc with a Japanese horse.
    Now on to the Japanese bloodstock mission....stayers. They've realised that stayers appeal more to customers than sprinters. Japanese horses ripped Aussie apart a few years ago. Since then travel and Quarrantine has been tricky but their base is now in place. This is the sort of thing NZ should strive for
  4. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    That's not really the central issue although it is a very compelling argument. Stakes are pathetic in the UK but the breeding industry and sales are booming. The rest of the World is sourcing horses from there because they have a defined pattern of racing (good handicapping and staging), two rating systems that keep each other and the industry honest, and the best bloodstock in the World. A bloke like P4P may disagree because we always debate this, but sprinters aside, there is a valid argument that through franking the form and the UK pattern identifies a bench marked validation process that identifies the merits of most horses in the UK and Europe.
    This means that the intrinsic value of any horse is established, especially after those horses have been competing so successfully in other jurisdictions like Australia and the US. Why do you think almost 60 yearlings were sold to US based clients in the recent sales? Why do you think the Book 1 sales averaged 230,000 guineas ($442,000) where 44 yearlings made over a $1m when the average racing stakes is much like ours but in UK currency? It's all about the prestige and the ability to place horses in a pecking order. The number of Aussie people buying yearlings was amazing.  
    So if we injected 200 well credentialed European mares in NZ, what would the effect be on our racing/ breeding over the next 20 years? The standard of our racing? The prestige of those horses also going to Aussie to compete? 
  5. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    It isn't just about the racing stakes, although that has a longer term effect in reinvestment in stock due to disinterest in the sport. It also isn't about the bad racing surfaces, although that may well be a determining influence to some who find racing nice horses on bad tracks unacceptable. Where we've fallen over badly is the replenishment of our breeding stock.
    Time and time again I will remind people that over the last 100 or so years NZ has imported bloodstock that it could afford. I recently bought an old stallion publication and went through the stallions that were standing. Honestly, I wouldn't have given you two bob for a lot of them.
    Horses like Pakistan, Copenhagen
     
    Sovereign Edition

    Foxbridge

    Oncidium

    Battle Wagon

    Le Filou

     and other stallions like Volksraad, Noble Bijou, St Ledger and Martial make up the genetics of our thoroughbred base. The real shame is that our esteemed leaders haven't even bothered to get all the data together about our stallion forbears in one place so that a bloke like me can get into looking at these images and get the info. I dragged these images off the web.
    Back to the story, this is the genetic make up of our breed. How can that compete today? They were quite well bred, but weren't top class race horses. Some of them are down right ugly but the most important thing is, are they relevant today? The type of horse that succeeds to day is quite different from the yesteryear. People have become impatient, the distance of the racing has decreased, the feed is different, the training conditions different, the racing surfaces and venues....different. You've got imported race horses racing in Australia that are rated 120+ and we expect to be able to compete with our genetic base being produced by horses who weren't even rated!!
    So you might ask, how do we improve this? Buy better stallions? A bit hit and miss for me but you're still relying on the stallions genetics to dominate. So we've got to reach for the broodmare band in order to pick things up. The importation of mares into NZ, where the mare is closely related to horses rated better than 120+, has produced most of our headline racehorses in recent times. Zabeel was out of an imported mare, as was Octagonal and that whole family, Waverley Star, Eastern Joy and more recently Tavistock. 
    If we produce a program to import international mares, whose stallion lineage are all champion international stallions, whose female families are closely related to horses rated 120+, then we will see more proper group one winners in NZ. Quite simple really
     
  6. Like
    benzracing reacted to brownboy in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    The fools running the racing Industry are like the morons running the country. They have no idea. A lack of quality horses is due to a lack of stakes money. Why race in Tauranga Awapuni new Plymouth or any regional track when you are racing for 20k on a premier Saturday or 10k on a mid week race. 7000 gets you to Brisbane 80 to 100 a day for a trainer and racing at Ipswich on a Friday a 1600mtr race is worth between 30 to 60k and fields are average. Eagle farm and Doomben your racing for 60 to 80 k for a maiden race so why race here. As long as the powers that be remain the same the industry will always be in decline. If you can win a race at Ellerslie your good enough to be a metro horse in Brisbane. Why stick around. Puke and Ellerslie have got it right. Terapa Matamata and Cambridge need to do the same as do Taurangs and Te aroha. Hastings Palmerston Whanganui Otaki all need to change. When egos are put aside and tracks are merged costs are reduced then stakes can be increased then its worth while racing a quality horse in this country. Till then we will pop across the ditch and enjoy the fruits of the Aussie tree       
  7. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in POOR QUALITY GROUP 1's IN NZ.   
    the trouble is that we can all sound like stuck records. Similar people making similar comments to the same people. Unfortunately there is no case to be made that anything said on this site will have any effect on any matter. 
    Only the stupid think that doing the same thing will instigate change. That is what has been happening. I watched the Great Northern Hurdles and Steeple Chase today. What a third rate, mediocre, lacking in class presentation of what should be fantastic. And we should have been celebrating the winners...but what happens....we cut to greyhounds. And the betting dribble needs to stop. They still don't get that because people generally lose betting, it's short sighted promoting betting the way they do. This should also be an entertainment business and its about the horse. The ivory tower has inept horse power in its pillars.
    But no-one will listen...or do anything....or even think about this post because no-one really cares.
  8. Like
    benzracing got a reaction from Midget in Australian Drought   
    Might have found the answer to my question
    “Australia produces the best sprinter-milers in the world,” Orton says. “We’re not so good at breeding stayers, not compared to Europe or New Zealand. In New Zealand their horses tend to grow and develop skeletally a bit slower, for reasons such as the ground being softer.
    “In Australia, there’s more sun, the grass is higher in protein, the conditions are more conducive to a fast-growing animal. You can hope for results earlier. And I believe we’ve got to breed to our strengths.”
    via https://www.tdnausnz.com.au/edition/2019-10-30/peter-orton-and-the-worlds-best-teacher
     
  9. Like
    benzracing reacted to mckenzie in The Informant   
    You're probably right in that the market it appeals to is going to be small in NZ. I enjoyed it because I like to have all the weekend fields down on paper rather than having to go through websites and keep checking to see who is racing when. Plus all the articles and opinion pieces,  when your reading online you only look at headlines that catch your eye, but in print you can scan over everything. It was just a well done publication that often asked important questions of the industry. The people I know who purchased it were usually the purists who liked getting their form, news and other tidbits in one place, but more and more people are moving online and getting that there.
  10. Like
    benzracing reacted to Breeder in Australian Drought   
    Things are getting very bad for the rural areas in Australia. It is not just the weather but the inner city Greens are being successful at squeezing the life out of farmers especially around water regulations.
    I watched an episode of "Bred to Win" a few weeks back and Caroline Searcy  interviewed some one from Arrowfield,  in about early September and they commented on how happy they were with the recent rain and the subsequent grass growth. In the background you see there was green but barely any real grass. Then the program went onto an interview at Cambridge Stud which was clearly very early spring --there were no leaves on the trees, but the grass was about 20 cm high.
    I wonder if any of the big studs would or are considering setting up in NZ like Gerry Harvey to take advantage on the growing conditions here? Air transport is relatively easy now . The costs of supplements must be increasing in Australia. Earlier in the yea,r around the yearling sales time we had David Ellis and Paul Moroney commenting on how the drought seemed to have negatively affected the yearling development in Aussie ---quite possibly some "sales talk" to help NZ sales but I am sure there must have been at least an element of truth in it.
    Even if people sent to NZ the weanlings they intend to race themselves to be reared here, there could be advantages for them in the long run.
  11. Like
    benzracing reacted to Berri in Tavistock injured.   
    Fingers crossed because it is a major. Fortunately as much as can be is being done by the good management at Cambridge.
  12. Like
    benzracing reacted to Breeder in Tavistock injured.   
    The bad luck continues for Cambridge Stud this year. Tavistock has been injured in the paddock and is being withdrawn from service for the remainder of this season.
    https://www.breednet.com.au/news/8508/tavistock-withdrawn-from-service
     
  13. Like
    benzracing reacted to We're Doomed in Light Reading   
    Some light reading for anyone who might be interested in the pattern of racing, and has an hour or two to spare. On the positive side, our racing appears to be stronger than ever before, with more group two and three races than we have ever had: 27 groups two's this season, 5 more than 2013/14; and 44 group three's, 8 more than 13/14.
    https://loveracing.nz/OnHorseFiles/Downloads/Report of the NZPC 2019 Final.pdf
  14. Like
    benzracing reacted to Idolmite in Are races getting faster?   
    Improved drug detection has balanced out improved feed?
  15. Like
    benzracing reacted to Nearco in Are races getting faster?   
    An academic who thinks I'm a bit obsessed with thoroughbreds has posed an interesting question:
    'The Kenyan breaking the 2 hour marathon reminded me that recently someone I know said they had gone back and looked at the winning times of the Kentucky Derby and it appeared that there had been no increase in horses speed in 50 years (or so) perhaps even longer. Is this true in general.  I would think that improvements in nutritional knowledge and training regimes would have led to an increase in horses just as it has in humans?' I found the times for the Kentucky Derby online, and produced a graph.  2019 is on the left, 1918 on the right. Quickest in modern times was Secretariat in 1973, 1.59.4  Slowest Sunday Silence in 1989 2.00.5  Weather & track conditions obviously have a bearing, but it would appear that over the past 60 years, times have only fluctuated by 5 seconds in a race of 2 minutes duration.
    What is this telling us? Since the Thoroughbred is a closed stud book, we aren't introducing any new genes, just shaking the genetic dice.
    Thoughts, please

  16. Like
    benzracing reacted to fitzy in ​Crown Prosecutor   
    Not surprising really even Epsom Derby winners struggle to be commercial stallion prospects unless they have been top 2yo’s or have won G1 miles.
    The fact that Crown Prosecuter paid over $100 in winning the derby should tell you enough about his 3yo form.
    Expect his temperament as a colt was the main issue.
  17. Like
    benzracing reacted to Insider in Look at this for breeding   
    Check out the pedigree of the blue blood SANGARIUS who won the Hampton Court Stakes last night at Royal Ascot.
    It's ONLY a Group 3 so hopefully he might find his way to NZ.....and he is by the most up and coming sire in the world in KINGMAN.
    0620sangarius.pdf
  18. Like
    benzracing reacted to Insider in ​Crown Prosecutor   
    Sadly a damn good question!
  19. Like
    benzracing reacted to mr_gee in 2019 New Season stallions   
    Ace high rich hill stud
  20. Like
    benzracing reacted to mr_gee in 2019 New Season stallions   
    https://t.co/Hr6lAmic5G?amp=1Eminent to brighthill 8k
  21. Like
    benzracing reacted to Baz (NZ) in Ace High - Rich Hill Stud   
    Late addition to NZ 2019 Sire Ranks $10,000 + GST.
    https://loveracing.nz/News/27941/RichHillhasAceinthepack.aspx
  22. Like
    benzracing reacted to Idaho99 in Horses of old   
    How wonderful to read about our amazing mare Daria’s Fun. We still breed from the family having retained her daughter, and grand daughters. Since we’ve have Sword in Stone and Secret Spirit being the most prominent performer so far. Her 3.15.59 record still stands in Australasia for 3200m - what an experience to have had her.
  23. Like
    benzracing reacted to Franco Ice in DUNDEEL   
    Critically Dundeel had serious gas. Murray Baker maintained that had he and Andrew trained him specifically, he could have won a Group 1 sprint fresh-up.
     
  24. Like
    benzracing reacted to scooby3051 in Good Luck Team Pitman With Enzos Lad   
    Good luck to Michael and his team....
     
    https://www.facebook.com/TAB/videos/466688570747199/?t=9
  25. Like
    benzracing reacted to Pegasus 9 in DUNDEEL   
    A colt by Dundeel topped the first session of the William Inglis Great Southern Sale at Oaklands on Sunday when selling for $250,000.
    The bay is closely related to Group I winners Bonneval, St Reims and Champagne and after an opening bid of $100,000 eventually sold to New Zealand-based Alan Fu for $250,000.
    The colt was consigned by Glastonbury Farm, Duncan Grimley who described bidding on the colt as 'a feeding frenzy'
    "That's a great result, he’s a really nice colt,” Grimley said “Dundeel is just going like a machine at the moment.
    “Everybody on the ground was on the horse.
    “Expectations would’ve been around $200,000, and he went in with a reserve of $150,000.
    “It was like a feeding frenzy up there - there was about seven or eight on him at $200,000."
    Earlier in the session Steve and Ceri Jostler went to $240,000 for a colt by Exceed And Excel out of a winning Zabeel half-sister to New Zealand Group I winner Vosne Romanee.