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Sobering Figures

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An article on the Informant site -an interview with Rick Williams of The Oaks Stud gives these figures :

“The industry is down over 1,000 foals since 2008 and New Zealand has about 900 mares owned outside the main studs and there are 120 stallions to support."

The 900 is really surprising, at least to me it is.

https://theinformant.co.nz/website/News/single_news/Karaka-results-crucial-to-The-Oaks-Stud-future/YD5403

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Very interesting article Breeder - thanks for that.

900 mares in "private" hands is a very interesting figure.

If outfits like The Oaks with their equity, expertise and economies of scale are talking about rationalising then it just reinforces that the likes of small breeders like me are on a very tough road indeed.

 

Q: Bottom line, what are thoroughbreds bred for? 

A: To race

Q: Can you make money out of racing thoroughbreds (in NZ)?

A: Very rarely (dunno the percentage who turn a true profit but expect it's tiny)

 

So besids the odd very good horse, or lucky sale to overseas interests - evenutally the TB breeder is going to run out of money / come to their senses.  It really does seem a self-limiting exercise. And add to that a relative dearth of young people entering the arena.  I wish I didn't sound so pessimistic but it simply doesn't bode well.  

 

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6 minutes ago, crustyngrizzly said:

To me this is a clear sign that over commercialization has not been kind to NZ Racing in general.They don't always work towards whats best for the industry but rather ,whats good for them.

IMO small breeders get hammered.  A few dollars off a service fee here and there but otherwise no discounts (and at times, inferior service) from the various providers they need to patronise in order to keep and breed horses.  The bills are astronomical even for 1 or 2 mares.  Sometimes it feels like we are subsidising the studs.  And most of us don't have a pretty little 50 acre block on the edge of town to sell off to release some funds ... 

I acknowledge that the big boys are in it for the money and it's a business for them to run the best they can.  But I wonder if their lack of altruism is contributing to the death of breeding the NZ TB - that if they had a different attitude towards "home" breeders, that things would be in slightly better shape?   

 

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Nailed it Jess...a small cartel here and its going to come round and bite them on the bum....the ancillary costs associated with breeding a mare cannot be justified.  I was charged $90 for a vacc (not including administering the vacc - that's additional)  that I can buy in Australia with delivery to my front door for $29 - exactly the same brand/product. And yet the workers here are paid way less than their contemporaries in Oz. I guess many of the studs are lucky there is an abundance of young Irish folk that are very happy to work here for the experience (not so much the work experience but life experience) as a great deal of skilled Kiwis have made the decision to move on or move away.

I have a lovely young, well related mare by a stallion who is proving to be a wonderful broodmare sire.  She has produced 2 lovely fillies by respectable stallions, but she is not proven as yet.  I tried to negotiate a fee, which I thought was more than reasonable, for a 2nd tier stallion at a major Waikato Stud...the cross was perfect...but no, they wanted more $...as if the stallion would have had a full book.  I did emphasise I'm breeding to race....so I selected another stallion based at another leading stud, similar style of horse, cross is really interesting and the Stud offered a great deal for not only the fee, but for the agistment.  Couldn't fault anything, mare arrived home in lovely condition, good early service and what I was liked most, the Stud was extremely enthusiastic about the mating.  So there you go....2 leading studs, 2 different approaches. I know who I will be supporting in the future.

 

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La Zip.  I enjoyed your post - it's very interesting to hear of the experiences of others.  I would love to know the respective studs you dealt with if you were so inclined to PM me.  I patronised 2 studs I've never dealt with before this year and that was interesting too.

At one establishment,  the mare did not do at all well.  When this became clear, I tried to make suggestions from afar in the bid to help the mare back to better condition - was frustrating as the mare has always done well at pasture. I factor in it was a b###h of a wet winter - but when we got to talking about feeding options and the stud admitted their hay was "crap" - I started feeling a bit p'd off.

My mares no matter their breeding or quality are well fed and well looked after with me.  As for hay they've never been fed anything but top horse-quality hay.  It was so frustrating to have spent so much money sending her there ($500 odd a one-way trip) and then the agistment and auxiliary fees - to hear she was falling away and they didn't even have decent hay to offer her.      

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Perhaps if I could balance that tale a little.  Another mare was at a different stud and the service in terms of communication was great - starting with a phone call from the broodmare manager to say she had arrived and had walked off the truck in great nick and he was just about to take her to her paddock.  As a hands-on owner who is actually pretty fond of her horses I appreciated that and it got us off to a great start! 

Mare (a maiden) was not quickly in foal and I'll never know whether she was down the queue for the sire or really was "springy" for all those weeks - however plenty of mares are like this early in the season and I am inclined to take them at their word.  The stud kept in touch with how she was going (unlike those studs when you hear nothing and the only way you know what's happening with your broodmare is by deciphering the vet bills!).

Mare was returned in foal and in fine condition.  I have no doubt the stud made a tidy profit from agisting  her for several months but there were no unnecessary items/treatments on the accounts and so I have no complaints there.

I liked the way that comms were not just with an office manager who had never laid eyes on my mare (some comms were with her and she was perfectly nice and efficient) - but I'd get calls from time to time from the broodmare manager who was actually dealing with my mare.  I realise for owners who only see their TBs on raceday this might not be a big deal.  But I really appreciated it.     

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3 hours ago, La Zip said:

Most definitely Jess. I will PM you....

PM? Private message? Copy me in as well La Zip if possible as I am in a very similar position with mare with foal at foot and in foal again and just entering this breeding vortex really.

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Good chat - I'm surprised at 900 in private hands....I have one mare and am trying to buy land so I can lose the agistment fees and care for her at home. Not sure how most small breeders make it at least where she is currently I don't get charged for mane pulling...

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11 hours ago, Louise said:

Good chat - I'm surprised at 900 in private hands....I have one mare and am trying to buy land so I can lose the agistment fees and care for her at home. Not sure how most small breeders make it at least where she is currently I don't get charged for mane pulling...

Hi Louise. Yes a good thread started by Breeder. I would not be able to justify breeding anything if I paid a stud agistment year round.  

Charged for mane pulling? OMG! Cld tht not come under the general agistment fee for caring for the horse in a stockmanlike fashion? I worked at a stud where I watched staff  do tht sort of thing while they waited in line with mares at the crush - took no "extra" time and very little effort. In many cases mares enjoyed a little bit of grooming and laxed out prior to their scan. Also grooming is a great way to check over a horse- discover issues or injuries which might go unnoticed from a "paddock look"  

Now we'e not talking the flash traditional pulling of the mane to show or yearling sales standard mind - but for broodmares I find you can do a perfectly presentable job with an old shearing comb and it is not irritating for those horses who find proper mane pulling painful ...

Personally I'd not be happy to be charged to pull a broodmare's mane ..

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2015-2016

Broodmares at pasture 6700

Registered broodmares 5685

Total mares served         5121

Foals                                  3293

It is important to remember that 3293 foals are produced from 5121 mares served which is 64% which is obviously misses, absorbed,slips etc.

The key issue quite simply NZ prize money has not kept up with the increase in breeding and racing costs. Where as Australia has had a huge increase in prize money over the last 10 years and starting from a much higher base.

If our prize money had increased accordingly then more racehorses would pay there way here and there would be more mares bred, more horses sold and more profit in breeding.

Looking forward to Winston Peters announcement next week. Any little bit counts!

Adding some optimism NZ does breed a very good product and they will pay great money for the right NZ bred horse. That doesn't mean the breeder needs to go to an expensive stallion. Some really good results at sales in the $5,000 to $8,000 service fee range.

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Yes.  I do believe that is the most important fact of all in this.

If you have very little capacity to make money from breeding a thoroughbred race horse (whether you race it or someone else does) - why keep doing it?

Yes - like me it might be a passion - but a few more years throwing money into a black hole and I won't be feeling too passionate.   More likely I'll be quitting the game.

It takes a hell of a good racehorse in NZ to actually turn a profit over its lifetime.  THAT is a problem. 

I know from experience you can have quite a nice one which regularly weighs in - sometimes wins - and you're still considerably in the red when it retires.  

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I think Louise's point is one of, if not the most important one. There use to be the old "saying" that every dairy farmer had a broodmare in the back paddock. Well the way dairying is operated now there is no way that happens. Also I was like Louise --living in the city and tried my hand at breeding as a hobby ( back when I could afford it). While I had my mare at a fantastic stud who charged really reasonable agistment fees etc it was hard going. I never had the goal of making money --if I could cover cost I was happy. But that experience showed me how hard it is.

But if I had had my own land it would have been different. A few thousand off the stud fee on a good deal is not enough to make a significant difference overall, in my view.

Re prize money -- of course this important but the reality is NZ has become a very expensive place to live over the last 10-20 years . Costs of racing a horse are no different to other cost increases  and the same with the cost of running races. Disposable income has many more places to spent compared to 30-40 years ago.

I encourage my nieces and nephews who are mad keen on racing to get into syndicates even in a very small % way and treat it as a means of socialising with other people you may not know. For those really keen on breeding maybe that is another way to have active participation in your hobby.

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The different experiences at different studs is an eye opener. I have 2 mares, been involved 3 years, so far only managed 1 live foal, so not going too well. The first mare I bought was at Hanui, the communication was good, an email when she was served, an email each time she was scanned, a couple of phone calls, unfortunately that gave me the impression that's how studs operate! Next stud, nothing, worked out the mare was in foal from the vet bill, even got a phone call from Majestic one morning to say they had my mare on her way home???? This season one mare lost her foal, she's gone to another stud to  Foster, I had one call to say she's taken the foal, that was in September. An email to say she was served and scanned in foal. I suppose they're used to commercial breeders who aren't so bothered with knowing what their mare's looking like, with the ease of communication these days, snap a photo on their phone, email it through, it is pretty annoying. Jess and La Zip I also would love to know where you got the good service, and the ones to avoid!

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Hi Treat

agree completely.  I hate it when the only way you can figure out what is happening with your horse is by analysing the vet bills.  That simply is not good enough.

I am reluctant to publicise any place I wasn't so happy with - simply because it might unfairly malign an operation which is  usually good and perhaps my experience was an aberration. 

Happy to say however I was very satisfied overall when dealing with Cambridge Stud. 

You sound like you have had a really bad run Treat - depending on the causes of that I guess it might be you've had all your bad luck in one rotten run and good times ahead - or perhaps you really have had a raw deal from providers ... (am assuming your mares go to stud in good condition etc ....)

Communication is so easy these days as you say - and actually cheap too.  Many trainers and some studs could certainly increase satisfaction amongst their clients if they lifted their game in this area IMO ... J.  

 

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The pre-formatted emails on service / scanning are standard for the big players I believe.  But I too have dealt with studs where that system was not in place and I had to ring the stud to try to find out what was happening with the mare (turned out she had probably not even been to the barn until she'd been there for weeks and then been served and missed etc).

I appreciate it when someone who is actually dealing with the mare txts or phones (occasionally) to update me in progress or lack of it.  Yes I know my mare may be one of hundreds - but it's still not that hard to do ...

J.     

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34 minutes ago, jess said:

 

I am reluctant to publicise any place I wasn't so happy with - simply because it might unfairly malign an operation which is  usually good and perhaps my experience was an aberration. 

 

 

Very true Jess, and an establishment could get a tarnished reputation because one employee had a bad day so need to be very careful about criticism leading to something actionable. In spite of that, perhaps we could share good/excellent experiences when naming Studs, albeit with the risk of bogus "support" postings.

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13 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

Very true Jess, and an establishment could get a tarnished reputation because one employee had a bad day so need to be very careful about criticism leading to something actionable. In spite of that, perhaps we could share good/excellent experiences when naming Studs, albeit with the risk of bogus "support" postings.

Cheers Chevy - I agree. I'm not bothered about things being actionable - can't see myself straying into that territory - more concerned about being fair I guess  Do like the idea of sharing experiences though - hopefully most of us who have been around the cafe for a while could distinguish btwn the genuine posters and the "plants" who look to talk up their own operation!

For the record I have no allegiance / connection to any of the studs - purely a (small-time) client. 

J.

PS: thought of setting up a survey with grades for various features (eg. comms, fees, stockmanship etc) for various studs - but ruled it out as I think too easily (and likely to be) corrupted by certain participants ...

 

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For the record Jess, I have been dealing with Haunui this year and have been most impressed with the care, feedback, costs etc and I have not even supported a Haunui stallion, but on their performance I will in the future. (pre-supposing this horse-breeding folly hasn't bankrupted me).

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Thanks Jess,  Hoping I'm using up all the bad luck curse early in my TB breeding adventures, just a succession of the things that go wrong! All my friends are laughing that when I finally get one to the races they all want a share because if it makes it that far it must be going to be a good un!!;)

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Chevy - been there in the past also and no complaints re the Haunui team.  Pretty professional outfit from my experience. 

Treat - I hear ya!  Really I do believe the luck sometimes rolls like that ... I tell ya - horses have a million ways to break your heart.   You have to be resilient to last a day in this game.  I've not had the best of fortune 2017 to be fair - but it's now 2018 and I'm full of hope once again - fed up the mares today and told them they better have champs on board or else!!

Hee hee ... best of luck to you.  And remember - like I was told a long time ago by an old sage - good horses come from good horses - champions come from anywhere.

J.  

PS:  Chevy - maybe we'll meet some day and not even know it - hopefully at the races though and not at the insolvency court ... ;) .. all the best in your endeavors also. Keep in touch during 2018 - enjoy your contributions here. 

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Jess, 7 or 8 years ago I was pretty comfortable in early retirement so suggested to my wife that we needed to introduce a bit of risk in our lives. Thought about infidelity but agreed that could be pretty expensive so bought a couple of thoroughbreds instead. They have performed reasonably well (both winners) but think the first proposition would have been cheaper after all--now missed the chance physically and financially!:(

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Ha ha Chevy!  Brilliant!  

I am keeping the faith with the husband AND the horses for the time being.  As for retirement? - I would except for the horses.  Husband has eased right off but I can't afford to ditch the day job as I've yet to breed the champion that starts filling the black hole back up with money!

Gotta carry on while I can I figure - one day will be too old to wrangle the beasts and as I'm hands-on in this game - a few more years at work and a few more foals and I'll be both broke and worn out.  But I won't die wondering ....

All the best, J

 

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