Lazarus vs Chokin

[Basil 333]

Yesterday I sat down to watch last week's version of The Box Seat.  At one point, in the middle of some tirade about Aussie chauvinsim, MG made the astounding (to me) claim that Chokin was better than Lazarus.  And then repeated it.  No qualifications, just straight out "better".

Now I'd be the first to admit that Chokin was a very, very good horse, who died tragically young.  He was dominant as a 2 and 3yo; he subsequently won a NZ Cup and (I think) two Auckland Cups (one of which I remember being an outstanding performance); he ran 2nd in an Interdom (albeit on home soil), and he won some big races in Oz.  But better than Lazarus?  Without any ifs, buts, or maybes?  It seemed like an extraordinarily brave call to me.

Of course, Mr Guerin would have been a very young man indeed when Chokin was racing, and so I suspect he's suffering from what the psychologists call Rosy Retrospection Bias (things that happened when you were young are better than anything today).  And so the Chokin he remembers is somewhat better than the Chokin who actually raced.

Being somewhat older than Mr Guerin, I'm presumably even more subject to RRB than he is.  But despite that, I'd be prepared to label Lazarus as the best NZ pacer I've seen (I can't really remember Cardigan Bay, although I did see him race).  And certainly better than Chokin.

[harewood 477]

The comments that Guerin said were before the ID final. He may now rethink his assessment. If not he may need to lie down have some therapy.

I have seen many champions race over the years both live and on TV. I remember Chokin very well and was there when he won the NZ Cup. It was the most boring race on record for a G1. He led all the way with no challengers and ran no time. (Brodie would have has a field day with that race!)  Many young horses have dominated age group racing but it is when you dominate open class G1 races you can be tagged a champion. Lazarus has now won 14 G1s surpassing the record of The Might Quinn and Village Kid.And it will not stop.  There is no comparison comparing him with Chokin. Lazarus may be racing what is not the strongest crop of horses but you cannot go past the times and records he is recording. In any year he would still be winning.

For what its worth I was listening to Radio RSN yesterday. The Aus equivalent to NZ racing radio. A very respected Aussie racing scribe and journalist was talking about the days gallops  when the compare asked him about the IDs an what he thought of Lazarus. He said he has seen well over 20 IDs live and followed harness for decades. He stated that Lazarus was the greatest harness horse he had ever seen. And thats coming from an Aussie remember. 

I TEND TO AGREE WITH HIM. 

[Blue 1,095]

44 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

I guess chokin had more competition than Lazarus has now both sides of the Tasman. So very hard to gauge, hard to fault Lazarus as he is bomb proof but may not have chokins sheer brilliance.

Not sure how you compare sheer brilliance Flaggy. The whole scene is different now of course but I'm not sure Chokin would get close enough to blow smoke at Laz. We'll never know but if we throw in a Cardigan Bay, a Lord Module, a Robyn Dundee and a few others in the last fifty-odd years, I, for one am pleased with the memories of seeing some pretty handy horses over the years. Laz must rate one of the best IMHO.

[globederby12 1,495]

4 hours ago, harewood said:

The comments that Guerin said were before the ID final. He may now rethink his assessment. If not he may need to lie down have some therapy.

I have seen many champions race over the years both live and on TV. I remember Chokin very well and was there when he won the NZ Cup. It was the most boring race on record for a G1. He led all the way with no challengers and ran no time. (Brodie would have has a field day with that race!)  Many young horses have dominated age group racing but it is when you dominate open class G1 races you can be tagged a champion. Lazarus has now won 14 G1s surpassing the record of The Might Quinn and Village Kid.And it will not stop.  There is no comparison comparing him with Chokin. Lazarus may be racing what is not the strongest crop of horses but you cannot go past the times and records he is recording. In any year he would still be winning.

For what its worth I was listening to Radio RSN yesterday. The Aus equivalent to NZ racing radio. A very respected Aussie racing scribe and journalist was talking about the days gallops  when the compare asked him about the IDs an what he thought of Lazarus. He said he has seen well over 20 IDs live and followed harness for decades. He stated that Lazarus was the greatest harness horse he had ever seen. And thats coming from an Aussie remember. 

I TEND TO AGREE WITH HIM. 

When you have watched harness for 50 yrs ( like I have) the great horses come and go. Lazarus is the champion of his age/ era . Comparing is futile. 

The Aussie commentator hasn't been around long enough . He missed seeing a horse like Young Quinn for just one example. We can wax lyrical as long as we like about who we think the greatest is or was. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Horses of this calibre are a joy to watch.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

7 minutes ago, globederby12 said:

When you have watched harness for 50 yrs ( like I have) the great horses come and go. Lazarus is the champion of his age/ era . Comparing is futile. 

The Aussie commentator hasn't been around long enough . He missed seeing a horse like Young Quinn for just one example. We can wax lyrical as long as we like about who we think the greatest is or was. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Horses of this calibre are a joy to watch.

Very true. These days we seem to have one dominant horse whereas 30 or more years ago there were often several top class horses going around at once, and in much bigger fields. 

Modern racegoers who get excited about one dominant horse stringing wins together have no idea what it was like to watch horses like Armalight, Locarno, Bonnies Chance, Hands Down, Delightful Lady, Roydon Scott, Lord Module and numerous others all competing against each other

[harewood 477]

12 minutes ago, globederby12 said:

The Aussie commentator hasn't been around long enough

You are correct what you say Rees Just enjoy the present champions of the day. However this commentator is older than both of us and has seen a fair bit of racing over the years

[Eclipsed 245]

Mark's called him a champion and an experienced Australian racing scribe has done the same.

I respect Australian sports scribes. When we lived in Australia in the mid 90's they described John Walker as a champion miler and Danyon Loader as a champion swimmer on the Radio Sport equivalent on radio.

As the best money winning son of Bettor's Delight thus far, you'd have your fingers crossed that he puts similar racing traits into his progeny,post racing.

[Kotare_Hunter 748]

38 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Very true. These days we seem to have one dominant horse whereas 30 or more years ago there were often several top class horses going around at once, and in much bigger fields. 

Modern racegoers who get excited about one dominant horse stringing wins together have no idea what it was like to watch horses like Armalight, Locarno, Bonnies Chance, Hands Down, Delightful Lady, Roydon Scott, Lord Module and numerous others all competing against each other

+ Greg Robinson, Trevira, Young Quinn, Sapling, Rondel, Dels Dream, Idolmite, Gammalite, Quiet Win, El Regale, John Tudor, Captain Harcourt, Sole Command etc etc

[globederby12 1,495]

1 hour ago, harewood said:

You are correct what you say Rees Just enjoy the present champions of the day. However this commentator is older than both of us and has seen a fair bit of racing over the years

Then I suggest he has a short memory.

[Basil 333]

28 minutes ago, Kotare_Hunter said:

+ Greg Robinson, Trevira, Young Quinn, Sapling, Rondel, Dels Dream, Idolmite, Gammalite, Quiet Win, El Regale, John Tudor, Captain Harcourt, Sole Command etc etc

Sure, but with the obvious exceptions of Gammalite and Young Quinn (who were at least a generation apart), and to a lesser extent Sapling (who was in a generation in between), none of these were in the class of Lazarus (or Chokin for that matter).  Good solid open-class horses, but nothing more.  The Titan Banners of their day, as it were.

As for We're Doomed's more impressive-looking list, it's important not to succumb to RRB like MG.  Fondly though we remember these horses, they usually weren't up to the best Australians of the day.  They also didn't really compete as a group  ---  Locarno, Roydon Scott and Lord Module were coming to end of it as Armalight and Bonnie's Chance arrived on the scene, so they rarely, if ever, lined up in the same race.  A similarly-constructed list in 35 years would include Terror to Love, Christen Me, Lazarus, Have Faith In Me, Smolda, Adore Me, Dream About Me and perhaps one or two others --- which would look 'wow!', but would be misleading. 

[globederby12 1,495]

40 minutes ago, Basil said:

Sure, but with the obvious exceptions of Gammalite and Young Quinn (who were at least a generation apart), and to a lesser extent Sapling (who was in a generation in between), none of these were in the class of Lazarus (or Chokin for that matter).  Good solid open-class horses, but nothing more.  The Titan Banners of their day, as it were.

As for We're Doomed's more impressive-looking list, it's important not to succumb to RRB like MG.  Fondly though we remember these horses, they usually weren't up to the best Australians of the day.  They also didn't really compete as a group  ---  Locarno, Roydon Scott and Lord Module were coming to end of it as Armalight and Bonnie's Chance arrived on the scene, so they rarely, if ever, lined up in the same race.  A similarly-constructed list in 35 years would include Terror to Love, Christen Me, Lazarus, Have Faith In Me, Smolda, Adore Me, Dream About Me and perhaps one or two others --- which would look 'wow!', but would be misleading. 

Very true and why it is futile to compare horses from different times. 

[Ohokaman 5,829]

33 minutes ago, globederby12 said:

Very true and why it is futile to compare horses from different times. 

A reasonable neddy named Christian Cullen seems to have escaped everyone...

[Alan B 41]

43 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

A reasonable neddy named Christian Cullen seems to have escaped everyone...

Yes and what an excitement machine he was. The horse actually got me back interested in harness racing again. Wouldn't he rate as second best behind ever behind Lazarus? Though I must admit I don't like comparing horses from different eras.

[harewood 477]

5 hours ago, Kotare_Hunter said:

5 hours ago, Kotare_Hunter said:

Greg Robinson, Trevira, Young Quinn, Sapling, Rondel, Dels Dream, Idolmite, Gammalite, Quiet Win, El Regale, John Tudor, Captain Harcourt, Sole Command etc etc

 

4 hours ago, globederby12 said:

Then I suggest he has a short memory.

Modern racegoers who get excited about one dominant horse stringing wins together have no idea what it was like to watch horses like Armalight, Locarno, Bonnies Chance, Hands Down, Delightful Lady, Roydon Scott, Lord Module and numerous others all competing against each other

So does this diminish what Lazarus has just achieved in his career and especially in Perth in 35 deg heat, flies and on an 800 meter saucer.

You all go on about the good old days and the great racing and not to compare animals to each other yet you are all doing that. I was present when all these horses raced and yes it was great racing BUT Lazarus has done what none of them have done and appears to be getting little credit. 

Come on guys this horse is an out and out champion at the beginning of his career, has surpassed ALL others and will end up being the greatest Down Under has seen. Give him a break and stop living in the past. 

Rees the person I am referring to is Ray Huxley  Go and google him and see his credentials and the tell him he has a short memory. I am sorry my friend on this occasion you are very wrong. 

[globederby12 1,495]

4 hours ago, harewood said:

So does this diminish what Lazarus has just achieved in his career and especially in Perth in 35 deg heat, flies and on an 800 meter saucer.

You all go on about the good old days and the great racing and not to compare animals to each other yet you are all doing that. I was present when all these horses raced and yes it was great racing BUT Lazarus has done what none of them have done and appears to be getting little credit. 

Come on guys this horse is an out and out champion at the beginning of his career, has surpassed ALL others and will end up being the greatest Down Under has seen. Give him a break and stop living in the past. 

Rees the person I am referring to is Ray Huxley  Go and google him and see his credentials and the tell him he has a short memory. I am sorry my friend on this occasion you are very wrong. 

Sorry Paul, you may be right in regard to Ray Huxley but I would suggest that while Lazarus is maybe the best we have seen for some time and I am not diminishing his accomplishments he wouldn't blow smoke up either Cardigan Bays or Young Quinn's arseholes. The best ever? Sorry bud not in a million years. I would love to see him race in America untill he was 10 or 11 , be barred from betting in their greatest comp because he was to good or race in an Auckland Cup at 12 after being put back into training and running FORTH.

 

[globederby12 1,495]

Sorry ,that's FOURTH.

 

[We're Doomed 4,855]

10 hours ago, harewood said:

So does this diminish what Lazarus has just achieved in his career and especially in Perth in 35 deg heat, flies and on an 800 meter saucer.

You all go on about the good old days and the great racing and not to compare animals to each other yet you are all doing that. I was present when all these horses raced and yes it was great racing BUT Lazarus has done what none of them have done and appears to be getting little credit. 

Come on guys this horse is an out and out champion at the beginning of his career, has surpassed ALL others and will end up being the greatest Down Under has seen. Give him a break and stop living in the past. 

Rees the person I am referring to is Ray Huxley  Go and google him and see his credentials and the tell him he has a short memory. I am sorry my friend on this occasion you are very wrong. 

I don't think anyone was diminishing Lazarus Harewood. Personally I found it much more interesting seeing a group of talented open class horses race against each other rather than one super dominant horse. I tend to be a punter and $1.10 favs just don't do much for me. Racing actually needs competitive racing to generate turnover, rather than dominant favs. That doesn't mean I don't apreciate how good Lazarus is. And you can't compare horses from different eras as the breed improves and tracks get faster. Some of us can remember how the 2 minute mile barrier was quite some thing.

The true test of how good he is will be when CT Horse Stopper discovers him and starts tipping him out. Then we we see if he is a champion or not.

[Ohokaman 5,829]

49 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

The mass export of good horses to the u.s in the early -mid eighties hurt nz a bit....I used to buy the nz trot guide, I think it used to come out once a month and used to have a section with all the horses exported in it, I used to hate it when I saw some of my favourites on it, the likes of mai mai, steady lady, rain girl, Norton, basil dean, cal brydon ,te puke expects, derby and every month more and more.

And it has continued FU...have a look at the results/ videos from the Interdoms on the other thread and see how many have NZ next to the name.....still winning plenty too....

[globederby12 1,495]

1 hour ago, Ohokaman said:

And it has continued FU...have a look at the results/ videos from the Interdoms on the other thread and see how many have NZ next to the name.....still winning plenty too....

In fact, any given night at Glouchester Park and have a look at the NZ moniker next to the names. I sometimes wonder how WA pacing ranks would cope if it wasnt for the influx of Kiwi horses. 

[JackSprat 947]

I often wonder how the NZ pacing ranks would cope without the influx of WA cash!

[eljay 1,719]

Jack - you mean wonder how the WA pacing ranks would cope without the influx of NZ stock

[One more lap 91]

2 hours ago, eljay said:

Jack - you mean wonder how the WA pacing ranks would cope without the influx of NZ stock

Horses from NZ seem to grow a leg when over there, and you cannot turn a profit over here with the ratio of stakes to training fees well on the wrong side of the ledger, so sell, sell and sell the rest, just breed for the export market. Mot on sunday, look at the winners purse, more to the point, look at what the place getters got, next start now probably two weeks away, hardly rocket science, you have to have deep pockets and a love for the sport to race one that is not a star these days.

[Chestnut 3,151]

Champion is an easy word to throw around... and does he have to be the best to be a champion? .. for mine.. Idle Scott is a champion.to me in harness racing and when it comes down it.. that's what we see and what matters.. if someone says to me.. that horse is a champion, I think.. it's great you think so.. they are not my personal champion, but he or she is a fantastic horse .. and there ya go.

Tiger Tara I thought ran a fantastic race.. what guts.. there for me is another champion.. a horse that keeps on giving.. reliable as the day is long and tries their heart out

I agree Rees, we have seen so many wonderful horses over the years.. and to compare them as if they were running the same race is impossible.. it's different training environments, different tracks, different feed, different amount of racing - given travel times between venues ...   a lot of variables.. and there would be a lot of out liers... just like Idle Scott.. I think just enjoy

 

[We're Doomed 4,855]

1 hour ago, One more lap said:

Horses from NZ seem to grow a leg when over there, and you cannot turn a profit over here with the ratio of stakes to training fees well on the wrong side of the ledger, so sell, sell and sell the rest, just breed for the export market. Mot on sunday, look at the winners purse, more to the point, look at what the place getters got, next start now probably two weeks away, hardly rocket science, you have to have deep pockets and a love for the sport to race one that is not a star these days.

I tend to agree with you One More. The one thing that continually baffles me, which no one had been able to explain, is how there can be literally dozens of maiden and one win races in the SI some weeks and yet clubs struggle to fill races for 3 or more win horses. What happens to those horses that win all of the lower grade races? Where do they go? I can understand owners reluctance when tighter class horses race for only about $1,000 more than maidens.

The other thing that always bemuses me is the obsession with having penalty free races of various types, thereby stopping horses moving through the grades. Trotting does tend to cater to mediocrity, leaving the feature races to a very small pool of horses and generally poor betting propositions.

Alright, while I am having a bit of a rant, do many people actually take any notice of the commentators reeling off times during races? Do you think it means anything to the average punter?

 

[Chestnut 3,151]

I believe what you are seeing is a vicious circle that is impacting on harness racing and the fact that there are generally two types of investors in standardbreds.. those that like to own and train for themselves.. hobby trainers.. and in my opinion very good trainers on the whole.. they get horses that probably wouldn't win one in a big stable.. to produce above the odds because they really love them and keep them happy but it's hard to survive with the costs .. and you get the bigger trainers that have the well breds and the syndicates .. that are trialled and filtered and passed on before they get to the track.. and often to the hobby trainer/owners  ...  but you also get the middle zone.. that rely on having a decent horse that keeps getting placings.. then winning in lower grade.. and then placings in higher grade... and shuffle back ...     you can see how the circle in harness racing goes.. and much of it is due to poor stakes, travelling costs, lack of money in breeding standardbreds.. and it's a shame because there are far less injuries to horses.. if that is what punters care about.. and it's a real art to pace, they are beautiful to watch.   So that may answer some of your questions We're Doomed.. there are people that survive on being able to shuffle their horses.. and those that show promise... they go to WA and they go to North America ... perhaps the answer lies in converting the UK to harness and away from greyhounds... they love cart racing... perhaps grab the Duke of Edinburgh to sanction it   but be quick.. I think going the line of it being a family fun sport could get a few more sponsors in.. it's fairly humane for family friendly watching.. as long as the drives hit the cart rods, not the horse..   .....    and if they hype it up.. I love meetings at Cambridge they are fun, great environment.. grass, bars, good stand positions, it's lovely .. Harness has to find their position in the market and market it strong .. late afternoon/early evening for families to come and go - 6pm start time too late ...  and Sunday afternoons..