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Ohokaman

Arrogate still ahead of Winx...???

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Despite being beaten in his last three starts, the powers that be still have Arrogate Rating 134 as the Worlds best, ahead of Winx R 132 and Cracksman on R130. You have to wonder what she has to do, perhaps a reason for the planned visit to Epsom next year..??

https://www.racenet.com.au/news/winx-still-not-rated-the-world-s-best-racehorse-20171110

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On 10 November 2017 at 2:19 PM, Ohokaman said:

Despite being beaten in his last three starts, the powers that be still have Arrogate Rating 134 as the Worlds best, ahead of Winx R 132 and Cracksman on R130. You have to wonder what she has to do, perhaps a reason for the planned visit to Epsom next year..??

https://www.racenet.com.au/news/winx-still-not-rated-the-world-s-best-racehorse-20171110

I probably agree there is a NH bias against SH horses, but in reality, if you are a genuine, thoroughbred fanatic, have a deep respect for history and you are lucky enough to own a horse of international calibre, why wouldn't you want to take on the best at Royal Ascot, Longchamps or Champions Day?  Winx has now won a truckload of cash, 3 Cox Plates, so whats the next challenge if you decide to keep her in work?  She appears to be a relaxed, push-button type of horse that would settle in beautifully at Newmarket, so what's stopping them?  Sorry folks, I'm slowly losing my enthusiasm for this camp....they don't appear to have a genuine appetite to travel this mare? So challenge yourself Mr Waller, then take a deep breath and take the plunge...albeit probably 12months too late......the world is waiting to see the incredible Aussie champ...and you, most likely, will never have the amazingly good fortune to train such a wonderful thoroughbred like Winx again...no regrets! 

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21 hours ago, skelly said:

Beating the world's best racehorses would be a good place to start...

A truly subjective matter. Like 'the best field in 10 years' for the 2,000 Guineas yesterday, the horses might be 'a poor crop' to the die-hards, if Winx did go and thrashed them.

Consider horses such as Clansman, Pride of Rosewood and Happyanunoit (relying on memory rather than research here) that won Grade 1 races in U.S.A., while considered to be not the best that we produced. Would have rated them below Balmerino or Daryl's Joy but they succeeded there. Racing in Europe, in a different season and environment, is not easy and owners would wonder if it is worth risking their horse's record. Of course, their horses can compete in Melbourne Cups but that's only a handicap and we Australasians hardly breed stayers these days.

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3 hours ago, poundforpound said:

Not sure Balmerino won much in the NH, he did pass the post first twice that I can remember, once in a small race at Goodwood from memory, the other in Italy ( name the last good horse to come out of Italy ). He did run a few seconds however, but he certainly was no champion and was often described as being “reluctant”.

Little man, i just checked that you thought Balmerino won nothing in Europe, i just watch a video that said he raced in 6 nations and was equal top weight on the Free Hcp in 3 countries, France,England and Ireland and you could add New Zealand and Australia and he ended up with a record of 46 starts with 22 wins,11 seconds and 2 thirds.So i know you are a hard marker,but I believe he was a champion,so I await your response to defend your statement that he didn,t win much offshore and remember he went there in their hometown,so they had no travel and raced within their comfort zone.

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Balmerino also ran second in an Arc de Triomphe under a poor ride (from memory) to the great Alleged. 

Personally, think that Winx will be past it by June next year so the risks are huge unless they want to mate her to one of their best in their autumn/our spring to get a SH foal. 

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13 hours ago, La Zip said:

I probably agree there is a NH bias against SH horses, but in reality, if you are a genuine, thoroughbred fanatic, have a deep respect for history and you are lucky enough to own a horse of international calibre, why wouldn't you want to take on the best at Royal Ascot, Longchamps or Champions Day?  Winx has now won a truckload of cash, 3 Cox Plates, so whats the next challenge if you decide to keep her in work?  She appears to be a relaxed, push-button type of horse that would settle in beautifully at Newmarket, so what's stopping them?  Sorry folks, I'm slowly losing my enthusiasm for this camp....they don't appear to have a genuine appetite to travel this mare? So challenge yourself Mr Waller, then take a deep breath and take the plunge...albeit probably 12months too late......the world is waiting to see the incredible Aussie champ...and you, most likely, will never have the amazingly good fortune to train such a wonderful thoroughbred like Winx again...no regrets! 

My word, some people are hard markers. Waller has done a brilliant job with this horse; won all the big races and lots of money and placed her perfectly, and knew when to ease off when he could easily have raced her yesterday. And some people think he should sacrifice a Coz Plate or two to pop over to the UK and race for less money. The trouble with these champion racehorses is that the average racegoer assumes some sense of ownership and thinks they know what is best for the horse. Let the connections who put up the money make the big decisions.

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Can't disagree that Winx should be above Arrogate however the author needs to do his homework properly:

" She made it 22 straight in her third Cox Plate, where she overcame a clear track bias to smash a 90-year-old track record."

By my reckoning, Winx ran a record for the strathayr surface only which was laid in 1995. The overall track record for the 2040m distance is held by Better Loosen Up 2:01:5 set in 1990.

Also the distance of 2040m has only been run since 1986. The previous distances were:

 

  • The race distance from 1922 to 1942 was 9½ furlongs.
  • The race distance from 1943 to 1971 was 10 furlongs.
  • Following Australia's adoption of the Metric system in 1972 the race distance became 2,000 metres.
  • In 1974 the distance was changed to 2,050 metres and in 1986 to today's distance of 2,040 metres.

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Balmerino won 3 races in the NH - twice at Goodwood and once at Hollywood Park...plus was robbed of a victory in a Group 1 in Italy when Italian racing was actually quite good and nutted in the Arc by a genius ride from Piggott....22 wins, 5 at Group 1 level, is double 11, which is the number of seconds he ended up with....rated Champion Stayer in France and Champion Australasian 3YO...slightly better than a "decent" horse

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were shite because?....you were there?

he won twice and was placed 6 times from 10 starts in Europe - 5 at Group 1 level

Italy only 15 years ago had 8 Group 1 races included in their 73 BT races

it wasnt me that rated him a champion - it was the Australasian classifications committee who you no doubt will castigate for some reason....and 22 is still double 11

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is that the 100% correct like you were with the Stewards winner?

is 22 still double 11

is champion AUSTRALASIAN 3YO delusional

 

and Arrogate is still rated above Winx because the ratings are based on the year's best performance

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, poundforpound said:

Balmerino won two races in the NH, a very small race at Goodwood, and a race he was relegated from in that bastion of racing, Italy.

The net result is that he won one small race, that’s all.

you were wrong then and are still wrong

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all I've done is quote facts...you just seem to be shifting the goalposts....how did we get to "name the races (and their black type status)".....didnt realise the subject had changed

 

and I note in another subject line your comment was "What makes a horse good / great is when they can maintain high speed over a long period, and if they can sprint at the end of a high speed race they’re invariably really good horses, and if they can sprint twice or more in a race they’re usually champions. I can only think of two NZ horses who could sprint more than once in a race, Zonda and Balmerino. They were both pretty good"

so which is it plonker?

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From Mark Taylor's Century of Champions (2002)

Balmerino:

 

Draw up a list of NZ thoroughbreds who have reached the heights against genuine international opposition and the number would probably reach no more than half a dozen.. At head of that elite band is Balmerino. Before His exploits and conceding that Phar lap had Australian connections, the most significant international results by Kiwi horses were G1 wins in the United States by Cadiz (in the 1963 Hollywood Gold Cup and 1962 Californian Stalkes) and Daryl's Joy (in the 1970 Santa Anita Oak Tree Stakes). 

Since then Pride Of Rosewood and Happyanunoit (USA) Horlicks (Japan) and Sunline (Hong Kong) have won at G1 level outside Australasia. But Balmerino's globetrotting achievements in 1977 and 1978 probably still take pride of place.

Before embarking on American and European campaigns, Balmerino racked up five G1 successes in Australian and NZ. He was desperately unlucky not to add to that tally in Europe after second placings in France's Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe, England's Eclipse Stakes and Coronation Cup, and Italy's Gran Premio Del Jockey Club which was lost on protest. For his 1977 efforts the NZr was accorded top-equal status among European stayers of 4yos and older.

The 2400m Prix de L'Arc at Longchamp, arguably the world's premier wfa contest, could have easily fallen to the son of Trictrac. After suffering interference in the running Balmerino stormed home in an international field of 26 to run Alleged and Lester Piggott to a rapidly diminishing length and a half. Five weeks later he raced in the Washington DC International. It was testimony to one of the horse's great strengths, his durability, that he finished fourth in his 14th start for 1977 having taken in six countries.

Intelligence and concentration in adversity were two of hos other attributes, according to regular rider Maurice Campbell. "A needle eye gap would open up and he would be through it before you could blink." It was Campbell who guided the horse to 14 wins and three seconds in 18 starts in 1975-76, earning him the rating of the best NZ 3yo since Mainbrace. Fifth place in the Champion Stakes at Randwick was his only flop that season and the run was so out of character that trainer Brian Smith suggested he had been nobbled.

A powerful bay with a sweet action, he was nearly the perfect racehorse. A winner over 1200 to 3200m he handled most types of footing, endured strenuous campaigns and took travel in his stride. It all added up to 22 wins in four countries. With a little luck it could have been 24 in 6.

Major wins:

Hawkes Bay Guineas

Wellington Guineas

2000 Guineas

Avondale Guineas

NZ Derby

Wellington Derby

Rotorua Challenge Stakes

Rawson Stakes

Tulloch Stakes QTC Grand Prix Stakes

O'Shea Stakes

Brisbane Cup

Air NZ Stakes

Awapuni Gold Cup

Ormond Gold Cup

AJC Autumn Stakes

Toluca Lake Handicap - Hollywood Park

Valdoe Stakes - Goodwood

Clive Graham Stakes - Goodwood.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, poundforpound said:

You're clearly a bit cerebrally challenged,

I've never disputed his class as a three year old, I merely dispute your inflated version of what he was or did when he was based in the UK.

Does Mummy know you're playing on the computer

name calling and denigration when challenged...clear signs of a sad friendless old man

i never inflated his qualities as an older horse - I let Timeform and the British Classifications committee do that for me...but of course you know better

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8 hours ago, poundforpound said:

I just googled his race record up North.

The Goodwood Race was 2000m, he beat Uncle Pokey, you’ll all know Uncle Pokey :) in a dazzling 2.10+ time.

The race he won in Milan ( yes Milan ) he beat Statef, you’ll all know Statef :) 

He won a small race in the USA, still a win though, and I note he was 4th in the Washington International, in a field of 8, behind Johnny Majestic, you’ll all know Johnny Majestic :)

In his last year Racing he has seven starts, 1 win in a race  ( I think ) worth 5,000 pounds to the winner, plus three placings, and three times he didn’t pay a dividend, usually in very small fields, typically in shit races like the Hardwicke.

It’s time to stop living this lie, he was just a dodgy old cheat and well below top class towards the end of his career. In his defence he’d had a very tough career, he ran in everything, and MRC did give him some terrible hidings during his career, as was the way of many jockeys in those days.

Now reply with some facts please, or at least go read about the horse and get up to speed before you start wanking on again.

there is your problem...you seem to think wikipedia and google provide all of the answers.

He travelled to the USA on his way to Europe, running 4 times for a $30,000 Allowance win over 11 furlongs at Hollywood Park and 3 unplaced runs in Grade 1 events. His first European start was a victory in the Valdoe Stakes (not black type as you stated) by 5 lengths over Group 3 winner Lucent. His first run as a 6YO was his Goodwood Clive Graham Stakes win, in a time only 3 seconds off the track record. You mightn't know Uncle Pokey but the rest of us know him as a 3 time black type winner and Group 1 placed. His fourth in the Grade 1 Washington DC was actually behind Johnny D (a multiple group winner) - google not helping you much there is it.

no argument that he was better at 5 than 6...never disputed the facts - as you seem to want to.  Saying he was well below top class is a bit tough when Timeform say his 3rd last run before retiring "he knuckled down to business and ran on strongly to finish within 3/4 length of Gunner B, one of the best horses in training at 10 furlongs".

you've obviously been out in the Canterbury sun a bit much

:lol:

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2 hours ago, poundforpound said:

You can’t read fuckwit.

I was there, I rode out with one of his jockeys twice a week, I don’t need google to talk about Balmerino and how he liked to bludge.

I told you the race he won at Goodwood that was worth (from memory) about 5,000 quid to the winner.

I even told you who rode him in that, as in GS.

You don’t seem to understand how horses were handled in the UK, as in older horses, and how many are kept in training. Any chance you could go find someone else who has knowledge of the UK in that period ?

In the interim you keep living your delusional fantasy.

You’re not Garry Chittick or Pudding Moroney are you ? They both used to subscribe to the same values you have, and as a result buy shit one paced horses out of Europe, horses of the Balmerino type who’re of average ability, think Super Grey and Khaipour, classics breed fuckers.

For your benefit I’ve posted a link to the slug fest in Italy you’re wanking on about, the G2 marathon run in October when all the decent horses are focused on the Arc.

You'll recognize Ventura Storm, he won it last year, he ran five times in Ozz this last spring and got beat by an average of 10 lengths. There’s your measure.

haha obviously struck a nerve with your fine use of the english language

very pleased you used to ride one of his jockeys twice a week....no bigger thrill for a small man from the rural south who may have once been light but is now wight.....

and the successful stallions you have imported?.....no Savabeel's, O'Reilly's etc.

and no I'm not either of them.......but we all know who you are

and 2400m a marathon? If you knew anything about international racing you would know that Italian racing was much stronger up until 15 years ago until the government sucked the industry dry.....but you were obviously spending too much time riding Balmerino's jockey....... maybe you should try breeding a few more poor third topweights on the NZ 2YO Free handicap

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