Guest Report post Posted October 18, 2017 The time honoured Ashburton Flying Stakes for $50k has only 8 starters this year and unbeleivably 6 come from the All Stars stable. The others are Robbie Burns trained by Robert Dunn who is a good horse is not really open class as yet and The former Robert Dunn trained No Doctor Needed, that has been trained in the North Island. On the face of it this is a very sad predicament that one stable can totally dominate our better races season in and season out. Yes I know some of you are going to say that all the others need to lift their game to match it with the AllStars! That is not the point, the point is that maybe they can’t match it with the All stars and the owners of horses are not going to bother trying to compete in the future and you couldn’t blame them. Something needs to be done or ownership is going to continue to dwindle and our horses are going to continue to be sold if there is only going to be crumbs left in Stakes for all the others. I know some on here get excited about the tighter class racing but personally don’t and find it rather boring nowadays and I know many others do as well. Do punters really get excited backing Lazarus or Heavens Rocks at $2 to win? Not worth the effort and it appears at this stage that the AllStars will scoop all the prize money in this years Cup!!! Yay! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 2 more than last year. Maybe they need to entice a couple of aussies over to run 7th and 8th. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 win no. 1 106 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 I enjoy the open class trotters, Monbet and Bourdeax the best Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,099 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Brodie said: The time honoured Ashburton Flying Stakes for $50k has only 8 starters this year and unbeleivably 6 come from the All Stars stable. The others are Robbie Burns trained by Robert Dunn who is a good horse is not really open class as yet and The former Robert Dunn trained No Doctor Needed, that has been trained in the North Island. On the face of it this is a very sad predicament that one stable can totally dominate our better races season in and season out. Yes I know some of you are going to say that all the others need to lift their game to match it with the AllStars! That is not the point, the point is that maybe they can’t match it with the All stars and the owners of horses are not going to bother trying to compete in the future and you couldn’t blame them. Something needs to be done or ownership is going to continue to dwindle and our horses are going to continue to be sold if there is only going to be crumbs left in Stakes for all the others. I know some on here get excited about the tighter class racing but personally don’t and find it rather boring nowadays and I know many others do as well. Do punters really get excited backing Lazarus or Heavens Rocks at $2 to win? Not worth the effort and it appears at this stage that the AllStars will scoop all the prize money in this years Cup!!! Yay! Certainly no denying the obvious Brodie and F U but regarding punting on the Allstars, you ask "Do punters really get excited backing Lazarus or Heavens Rocks at $2 to win?" They obviously do when they win but if they don't it takes a bit of time to re-coup the loss as it appears most of these " big punters" seem to go for the small odds, which says to me they're not very brave at all. Something I've notices and if you're following the Allstars they too can come up with some handy dividends. Last week the TAB told us pre-start someone had pot $2K on Mr Hippie @ $2 and the same at $2.20, however no mention of anyone putting that kind of money on Bettor Trix at sixes. There was simply NO REASON NOT to back it at that money- one start, one win in a 1:57 MR - and also no reason that Mr Hippie was a foregone conclusion at 2's. Two races later they quinella'd. Tennyson Bromac paying 5's and Ohanzee paying $2.40 a place. Both qualified in 2.01 mile rate. Maybe there were some big bets but we certainly didn't hear about them. As I said, just my observation. Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil 333 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 Earth to Brodie --- 8 starters in the Flying Stakes isn't exactly unique. 1994 and 1999, to name just two recent-ish examples, had exactly the same number. And the 1993 event didn't happen at all. Were the Purdons to blame for those cases as well? Fartoomuch and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 18, 2017 37 minutes ago, Basil said: Earth to Brodie --- 8 starters in the Flying Stakes isn't exactly unique. 1994 and 1999, to name just two recent-ish examples, had exactly the same number. And the 1993 event didn't happen at all. Were the Purdons to blame for those cases as well? Basil, what planet are you guessing I am currently on? 23 years ago isn’t exactly recent-ish Basil! Not sure why there were only 8 in those fields as I don’t worry too much about tight class racing as a punting medium! Purdon probably weren’t to blame, just pointing out the fact that with Cup week coming up and the Ashburton Flying Stakes usually a reasonable leadin race to the Cup you would be hoping to have more than just the All Stars Horses lining up and a couple of others thrown in, wouldn’t you Basil. Or, do you think that it is a good sign for harness racing??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwentY$BilL 29 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 Part of the problem is there is only 19 horses left in the NZ Cup Nominations. 7 - No Doctor Needed, Piccadilly Princess, Lazarus, Dream About Me, Have Faith In Me, Robbie Burns and Heaven Rocks are in the Ashburton Flying Stakes 1 - Tiger Tara is down to race at Menangle on Saturday Night 1 - Alta Orlando is in an earlier race at Ashburton 4 - Seel The Deel, Imola, Titan Banner1 and Buster Brady raced in the Methven Cup last Sunday 4 - Jacks Legend, Hug The Wind, Maxim and Cash N Flow raced in the Holmes DG last Friday which leaves 2 - Classie Brigade and Ears Burning who are yet to resume. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakamaker 10 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 I agree with $20Bill's point - the issue is stakes levels for NZ Harness. Looking back over the past ten years is interesting reading: 2007 - 12 horse field, $60k stake 2008 - 12 horse field, $75k stake 2009 - 10 horse field, $75k stake 2010 - 13 horse field, $70k stake 2011 - 14 horse field, $60k stake 2012 - 12 horse field, $60k stake 2013 - 10 horse field $60k stake 2014 - 9 horse field, $50k stake 2015 - 11 horse field, $50k stake 2016 - 6 horse field, $49k stake Looks less an issue with the Purdons and more this race just losing its importance (and stake). I think you also have to factor in a few other things here too: - Dominant horses (like Lazarus) tend to be an incentive for people to sell intermediate level horses. I recall there were few to none of the place getters from Courage Under Fire's derby's still in NZ at 5. Similar comments for those in the time of Christian Cullen - Open class horses have a lot of options to chase big $$ races these days as opposed to waiting around for NZ Cup lead ups. The Victoria Cup for $200k was only last week - way more attractive a stake and race than the Flying Stakes. That field took Code Black, Field Marshall, Mr Mojito, Tiger Tara who were all NZ horses who (Arguably) could have been in this. - I think training methods/trainers have also improved so trainers don't need as many races to peak their horses for November. Just my sense of it So the issue is stakes on offer in NZ which is all predicated on punting on the TAB. Ironically, if we want to see more/better open class races, we need more maidens/horses racing to fill in the cards for betting on non-premier days. I'm not having a crack at them (as they are damned if the do, damned if they don't) but actually, the trainers selling horses overseas are one of the lead contributors to the problem. Also to get everyone going - it would be an interesting stat to see how many trainers own or bred horses in their stable (other than trade offs for training). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotare_Hunter 748 Report post Posted October 19, 2017 No longer are there c8 and c9 horses chasing a win or two to make the field. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young15 2 Report post Posted October 19, 2017 I think this is an issue with multiple causes. Stakes on the whole have not risen to match the costs, so your everyday trainers are training less. This already reduces the pool of horses coming through. The bigger stables still have their numbers and like what's happened with the Allstars, they are continuing to dominate and becoming bigger as more and more trainers cut down or move on. The costs vs stakes also influences a lot of owners/trainers to have to sell (if they're trying to make a living) . Selling some to keep the others going. If you have a horse that you think will make open class but that's not going to be good enough to compete with the top ones (which at the moment is dominated by the Allstars) you have to make the decision to race till they reach their mark and then sell or continue to be running around for placings at best, at the top level. This issue has been building for a long time, in the past 10 years I've seen so many smaller trainers leave the industry or have to get supplementary jobs because even if you have a nice horse who could win a few the stakes aren't enough to cover the costs and keep going. If HRNZ is wanting to just keep the big trainers going and force the smaller guys out then they're going down the right track. The new rating system which I have yet to hear many positives about is also making it harder and we are more likely to see more horses go overseas. When a 2 or 3 year old can be open class after 5-6 wins, how does that encourage anyone to continue if their horses at 4yrs aren't up to racing at cup level? Apologies if this post has diverted a bit from the original post but I believe this is a multifaceted issue. Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 1,495 Report post Posted October 19, 2017 28 minutes ago, Young15 said: Stakes on the whole have not risen to match the costs, so your everyday trainers are training less Nailed it in one . There is a parallel here with the Thoroughbred Industry, where it is going to become centralized (as at Cambridge)for the North Island Carting horses miles for pathetic returns if any burns most in time .Couple that with the rating system and the incentives decline considerably as alluded to by Young15. To criticize the Allstars team is rather disingenuous to be honest. Hats off to them for attracting investors to the Harness game. Sure , the pre trainers pick out the best from probably a large contingent of horses, nothing new there and once again paralleled with the TB ,s. We are following closely the TB,s path, unfortunate but a reality. Selling good quality stock to survive will continue as long as the status quo prevails, and good trainers will leave or give up . Young15 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted October 19, 2017 While the above make good points relating to participation, i think it is quite simple why there is such a small number running in the flying stakes. Its exactly the same reason they only have 8 in the non win mobile,half of which are all star runners. Trainers don't line their horses up if they know they have no chance. Well most don't anyway. It has everything to do with the superiority of the all stars. I'm just telling it as it is. Lets be honest,look at what happened to Mr lowe last year in that first race. Most had a chuckle when he decided to line up against the all stars in the first race last year,then most felt sorry for him when he was suspended simply for thinking he could finish within 200m of them if he drove in a way that would have been ok in any other race. Who did not think he was a mug for lining up in a race where he was never going to be competitive. Anyone? Who really thinks dunn is doing his horse any favours by running in the flying stakes. I guess he is one of the few thinking about the money you get for lining up. Any starter in the flying stakes gets $2000. Having one stable dominate the elite races is bad for the sport,granted its not their fault they are so superior. Does not worry me personally. I'm just telling it as I see it. Young15 and Happy Sunrise 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil 333 Report post Posted October 20, 2017 On 10/18/2017 at 8:54 PM, Brodie said: Basil, what planet are you guessing I am currently on? 23 years ago isn’t exactly recent-ish Basil! Not sure why there were only 8 in those fields as I don’t worry too much about tight class racing as a punting medium! It's really very simple Brodie (hint: it relates to the difference between quantity and quality). The Flying Stakes field consists of: • The most recent NZ Cup winner, who in doing so produced one of the most dominant winning performances of all time • The most recent Auckland Cup winner, who also happens to be one of the most dominant fillies/mares of all time • The fastest horse of all time over a mile in Australasia • A multiple Jewels winner having her first start for the season • One of the most outstanding 2 and 3yos ever to race in Australasia, also having his first start for the season • A horse who some think is superior, at his best, to all of the above. If you're not excited by this, you just don't like racing. Spikecity, Iraklis, Thejanitor and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 21, 2017 19 hours ago, Basil said: It's really very simple Brodie (hint: it relates to the difference between quantity and quality). The Flying Stakes field consists of: • The most recent NZ Cup winner, who in doing so produced one of the most dominant winning performances of all time • The most recent Auckland Cup winner, who also happens to be one of the most dominant fillies/mares of all time • The fastest horse of all time over a mile in Australasia • A multiple Jewels winner having her first start for the season • One of the most outstanding 2 and 3yos ever to race in Australasia, also having his first start for the season • A horse who some think is superior, at his best, to all of the above. If you're not excited by this, you just don't like racing. Basil, no I am not excited by the race and it will be as boring as hell. Basically just a trial as the AllStars are able to,control the race and sprint home and they aren’t going to give any of their horses a gut buster! I am sure you will enjoy,it but don’t beleive the turnover will be that flash on it! You also should stop holding hands with your boyfriends, Newmarket, Spike, The Janitor etc. as people are talking about it!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 23, 2017 After all that's been said it turned out to be a very interesting and thrilling contest. Was happy to get 1.57 offshore for Lazarus but thought it should have won with more authority until i found out that trainers have been fined for gear issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Fartoomuch said: After all that's been said it turned out to be a very interesting and thrilling contest. Was happy to get 1.57 offshore for Lazarus but thought it should have won with more authority until i found out that trainers have been fined for gear issue. Well done for backing the winner. Would not have said it was a thrilling contest though! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,720 Report post Posted October 23, 2017 So on to the next "big" race - and no doubt all the same comments/criticisms will re-appear!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, eljay said: So on to the next "big" race - and no doubt all the same comments/criticisms will re-appear!! From some people at least!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
