Hastings Track Update

[Berri 2,131]

On ‎21‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:29 AM, Whyisit said:

I understand mediocrity I have to deal with it everyday .

now why I brought up about vertidraining to me it’s a waste of time if they don’t take the oppprtunity of benefitting of what they have done. I have never seen it in practice but have viewed promo,s of it operating and I immediately thought of what you had said earlier about depth of soil etc.

my reasoning is that if they have vertidrained and it has supposed breakup via vibration the hard panned surface and lower,you have the golden opportunity of getting an appropriate mixture of soil via the holes that the vertidrain has caused.It may be as simple cutting the grass short , vertidraining and top dress with a soil mixture brush over a couple of times with a set of brushes like the road ones towed behind an ATV . 

benefits are you can get some soil deep enough and through watering it should permeate the substructure of the surface,so you have got the start of hard panning disapating. Thee times in one year if it works would be a great start in helping to fix the track up.

Instead of the vertidrain holes sealing back over in time hardpanning you should have some aeration occurring and an median for moisture retention deep.

The VSA will alert any informed person of the necessary steps to get this right. I note in the 2015 Bell Gully report that they didn't find a pan. Not sure how they came to that position as the document doesn't really reference any formal agronomic investigation that was data orientated. As part of the VSA,  I'd be tempted to ground truth radar the track to see what's going on underneath. We know there's a problem but we don't really know the cause although we suspect it's mismanagement.

If you decide to use machinery to remedy the problem, then you must also be prepared to apply scientific remedial practises because we are talking an organism here. If you don't treat the cause, you'll have to artificially correct the original problem repeatedly. Just machinery is probably not going to work in the long term.

Why not simply get the soil right and the rest will follow.

[Whyisit 232]

52 minutes ago, Berri said:

The VSA will alert any informed person of the necessary steps to get this right. I note in the 2015 Bell Gully report that they didn't find a pan. Not sure how they came to that position as the document doesn't really reference any formal agronomic investigation that was data orientated. As part of the VSA,  I'd be tempted to ground truth radar the track to see what's going on underneath. We know there's a problem but we don't really know the cause although we suspect it's mismanagement.

If you decide to use machinery to remedy the problem, then you must also be prepared to apply scientific remedial practises because we are talking an organism here. If you don't treat the cause, you'll have to artificially correct the original problem repeatedly. Just machinery is probably not going to work in the long term.

Why not simply get the soil right and the rest will follow.

I have given you a way to speed up the process ,naturally I would expect to apply a soil laden with the appropriate remedial content to suit the organism .

just treating the soil topically will take 5 to 6 years if it works to get down to a depth 

Vertidraining works take today’s racing as an example why not capitalise on the expense of vertidraining .

i have seen coring a track much the same as vertidraining except the soil is simply cored out and left on top of the track it’s like walking on carpet when it’s done . Treat the cored out  soil appropriately brush it back in and that will still beat just treating the soil topically .

just remember what doesn’t get sweeped back down the holes is what you will be doing topically .

 

 

[Berri 2,131]

19 hours ago, Whyisit said:

I have given you a way to speed up the process ,naturally I would expect to apply a soil laden with the appropriate remedial content to suit the organism .

just treating the soil topically will take 5 to 6 years if it works to get down to a depth 

Vertidraining works take today’s racing as an example why not capitalise on the expense of vertidraining .

i have seen coring a track much the same as vertidraining except the soil is simply cored out and left on top of the track it’s like walking on carpet when it’s done . Treat the cored out  soil appropriately brush it back in and that will still beat just treating the soil topically .

just remember what doesn’t get sweeped back down the holes is what you will be doing topically .

 

 

Once again you are not following the rule of science and process. You are discussing the use of a methodology that may or may not be the appropriate remedy. Don't you see that this is not the right approach? This is what has been happening to NZ racing. The process is ignored and people continuously are making suggestions that simply have no basis of reliability, other than someone thinking it is a good idea. 

The purpose of verti draining and spiking is to allow oxygen into the root system and to provide a conduit for surface water to the drains. Generally speaking it has been used to allow draining to 16cm in golf courses and football pitches. It's done with spikes and the methodology is to then spray quantities of sand over the surface is that the same granules of sand keep the small spike holes clear so that the draining continues. That's great for golf or football pitches where you don't have 500kg beasts strutting their stuff. If you're trying to sort a race course out, you need everything to happen to 1m+ under the surface because that's where you want the roots to go and you don't really want excessive sand on the pitch because that also destabilises the surface.

You need the soil structure to recover to allow the sub-structure to be a virulent, vibrant ecology of microbes where roots really want to go. Without a VSA you will never know what really needs to be done.

[Whyisit 232]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:33 PM, Berri said:

Once again you are not following the rule of science and process. You are discussing the use of a methodology that may or may not be the appropriate remedy. Don't you see that this is not the right approach? This is what has been happening to NZ racing. The process is ignored and people continuously are making suggestions that simply have no basis of reliability, other than someone thinking it is a good idea. 

Ok we have gone through the process of a VSA  . I will repeat the question I asked earlier 

Let's say you have done a full VSA on the hastings track  and say that it suggests it's subsoil and plant rooting is not up to standard and lacks sufficient humus content. How would you go about it remedying the track.

I don’t need a long winded spiel on microbiology or Kelts history what you gave the last time to fudge not answering.

The purpose of verti draining and spiking is to allow oxygen into the root system and to provide a conduit for surface water to the drains. Generally speaking it has been used to allow draining to 16cm in golf courses and football pitches. It's done with spikes and the methodology is to then spray quantities of sand over the surface is that the same granules of sand keep the small spike holes clear so that the draining continues. That's great for golf or football pitches where you don't have 500kg beasts strutting their stuff. If you're trying to sort a race course out, you need everything to happen to 1m+ under the surface because that's where you want the roots to go and you don't really want excessive sand on the pitch because that also destabilises the surface.

Almost word for word off the Vertidrain Website  .     I haven’t mentioned sand but I would like to mention the fact of the best track surface turnarounds is Te Rapa based on sand .   I guess that doesn’t suit your story.

 If you had noticed or looked hard enough you will see the vertidrain tines can go 16 inches deep 

You need the soil structure to recover to allow the sub-structure to be a virulent, vibrant ecology of microbes where roots really want to go. Without a VSA you will never know what really needs to be done.

This VSA ideology  has it been proven on racetracks ? I note there are VSA  books out on orchards dairying pastoral farming the lists go on but nothing on racetracks .  Are we on unproven territory with racetracks and VSA.?

 

 

[Guest 2Admin2]

Whyisit - sand has stuffed Te Rapa.  It did nothing to fix the underlying issue of poor soil structure. 

[Whyisit 232]

1 hour ago, 2Admin2 said:

Whyisit - sand has stuffed Te Rapa.  It did nothing to fix the underlying issue of poor soil structure. 

I do take note that the problem existed before the sand slitting

Well it certainly produced a better racing surface. No more sinking over the horses fetlocks and all racing along the outside rail up the straight when it rained.   Seem to get full fields during the winter the trainers must be  happy.

Still there’s Berri on tap o fix it  after he’s fixed Hastings.  I’m interested in how he is going to fix Hastings

 

[Guest 2Admin2]

22 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

I do take note that the problem existed before the sand slitting

Well it certainly produced a better racing surface. No more sinking over the horses fetlocks and all racing along the outside rail up the straight when it rained.   Seem to get full fields during the winter the trainers must be  happy.

Still there’s Berri on tap o fix it  after he’s fixed Hastings.  I’m interested in how he is going to fix Hastings

 

When you don't have many options Trainers will race their horses anywhere they can.  My view is that the "fix's" done at Te Rapa were one-off and only short term.  One-off in that you can't do them again.  Now the track is deteriorating again and is not better than most.

[Whyisit 232]

55 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

When you don't have many options Trainers will race their horses anywhere they can.  My view is that the "fix's" done at Te Rapa were one-off and only short term.  One-off in that you can't do them again.  Now the track is deteriorating again and is not better than most.

One off and short term you are dreaming     Sand slitting involves draining the water off the track via the sand in the slits the last time I time I was at Te Rapa the side drains were working well.  If one of the side drains fail  you can just shift a metre or so and put a new one in . 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest 2Admin2]

31 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

One off and short term you are dreaming     Sand slitting involves draining the water off the track via the sand in the slits the last time I time I was at Te Rapa the side drains were working well.  If one of the side drains fail  you can just shift a metre or so and put a new one in . 

 

 

 

 

 

Great you've drained the water away but done nothing to improve the turf.  You may as well race on sand.

[Whyisit 232]

1 hour ago, 2Admin2 said:

Great you've drained the water away but done nothing to improve the turf.  You may as well race on sand.

Tell me what problems they are having with the turf   So Berri can have a heads up on how to fix it .

[Berri 2,131]

I'm reacting to both of your recent posts

In the first one, you are exactly what the problem is in the current racing environment. I have explained the concept of a VSA, and of the soil tests to establish mineralisation and biological performance. I have also added to that my distain at the current management not prioritising the need to embrace technology to monitor environmental performance, especially the weather, in order to template knowledge based protocols. I think we over water using irrigation. I have also talked about ensuring there are the correct microbes available to soil, and the relationship between those microbes and mineralisation. Any slightly intelligent person would have interpreted this as the description of a process to introduce minerals and microbes to the racing surface. You seem to have grasped that by trying to predict that it would take too long for the process to have effect and therefore we need to drill holes to a depth of 16 inches and then fill them up with sand!!!  

I have also extended the debate to looking at the plant/ grass types that are present in the plant head.

So I'm actually not sure what else you want. What don't you understand? What else is rattling around that mind of yours because based on your  posts, you actually have no idea of much. You initially defended the track management at Hastings, and you now an advocate on introducing mechanical solutions without actually understanding what the real issues are. That's why I say you are symptomatic of the ails of the industry.

As for your language use stating I was "fudging the answer", or needing time to do so, take a piss against someone else's tree. You're a twat for posting that response...a person with no knowledge of much...I am generally very busy at the moment doing a real job.

As for the verbatim quote, what better a way of allowing the readers of this site to understand what the shite you are talking about. You talk such crap that something has to be factual.

As for the sand being introduced to Te Rapa, each track is different and Te Rapa was probably a peat based surface so probably needed something else. I am not privy to either knowing what the surface was, but being a Waikato native, I have experienced multiple properties that are peat based in the immediate area. Your complete ignorance of the topic is demonstrated by you suggesting that the draining solution to every track is a verti draining and sand!! Whew....let's hope you're no where near the policy making decisions for the improvement of the tracks in NZ.

As for going down 16 inches....yeah, let's all celebrate....let's crack the champagne.....we've only got 17 inches to go to get to the median of a healthy root profile....

Now to VSA's....petulant child beast....this is a description of a methodology to determine various soil characteristics in a formal protocol. It's used for everything soil and plant friendly, golf courses, race tracks, farms, gardens and lawns. One thing we know is that there is a problem on numerous tracks in NZ. We suspect it is a number of different things but without formally looking, no-one knows because the NZTR haven't done any to a certified standard. I've asked. I'd actually add ground truth radar as well in order to understand the soil profile down to 4 meters. You just may find something interesting.

So twat, stand up when you next piss against the bush to mark your territory....you don't want anything sticking to your shoes. Go away and try becoming a useful member of our society. Your approach sucks and you expose yourself intellectually.

[Guest 2Admin2]

4 hours ago, Whyisit said:

Tell me what problems they are having with the turf   So Berri can have a heads up on how to fix it .

I take it you don't actually watch racing at Te Rapa?

[Whyisit 232]

1 hour ago, Berri said:

I'm reacting to both of your recent posts

In the first one, you are exactly what the problem is in the current racing environment. I have explained the concept of a VSA, and of the soil tests to establish mineralisation and biological performance. I have also added to that my distain at the current management not prioritising the need to embrace technology to monitor environmental performance, especially the weather, in order to template knowledge based protocols. I think we over water using irrigation. I have also talked about ensuring there are the correct microbes available to soil, and the relationship between those microbes and mineralisation. Any slightly intelligent person would have interpreted this as the description of a process to introduce minerals and microbes to the racing surface. You seem to have grasped that by trying to predict that it would take too long for the process to have effect and therefore we need to drill holes to a depth of 16 inches and then fill them up with sand!!!  

I have also extended the debate to looking at the plant/ grass types that are present in the plant head.

So I'm actually not sure what else you want. What don't you understand? What else is rattling around that mind of yours because based on your  posts, you actually have no idea of much. You initially defended the track management at Hastings, and you now an advocate on introducing mechanical solutions without actually understanding what the real issues are. That's why I say you are symptomatic of the ails of the industry.

As for your language use stating I was "fudging the answer", or needing time to do so, take a piss against someone else's tree. You're a twat for posting that response...a person with no knowledge of much...I am generally very busy at the moment doing a real job.

As for the verbatim quote, what better a way of allowing the readers of this site to understand what the shite you are talking about. You talk such crap that something has to be factual.

As for the sand being introduced to Te Rapa, each track is different and Te Rapa was probably a peat based surface so probably needed something else. I am not privy to either knowing what the surface was, but being a Waikato native, I have experienced multiple properties that are peat based in the immediate area. Your complete ignorance of the topic is demonstrated by you suggesting that the draining solution to every track is a verti draining and sand!! Whew....let's hope you're no where near the policy making decisions for the improvement of the tracks in NZ.

As for going down 16 inches....yeah, let's all celebrate....let's crack the champagne.....we've only got 17 inches to go to get to the median of a healthy root profile....

Now to VSA's....petulant child beast....this is a description of a methodology to determine various soil characteristics in a formal protocol. It's used for everything soil and plant friendly, golf courses, race tracks, farms, gardens and lawns. One thing we know is that there is a problem on numerous tracks in NZ. We suspect it is a number of different things but without formally looking, no-one knows because the NZTR haven't done any to a certified standard. I've asked. I'd actually add ground truth radar as well in order to understand the soil profile down to 4 meters. You just may find something interesting.

So twat, stand up when you next piss against the bush to mark your territory....you don't want anything sticking to your shoes. Go away and try becoming a useful member of our society. Your approach sucks and you expose yourself intellectually.

 

1 hour ago, Berri said:

I'm reacting to both of your recent posts

In the first one, you are exactly what the problem is in the current racing environment. I have explained the concept of a VSA, and of the soil tests to establish mineralisation and biological performance. I have also added to that my distain at the current management not prioritising the need to embrace technology to monitor environmental performance, especially the weather, in order to template knowledge based protocols. I think we over water using irrigation. I have also talked about ensuring there are the correct microbes available to soil, and the relationship between those microbes and mineralisation. Any slightly intelligent person would have interpreted this as the description of a process to introduce minerals and microbes to the racing surface. You seem to have grasped that by trying to predict that it would take too long for the process to have effect and therefore we need to drill holes to a depth of 16 inches and then fill them up with sand!!!  

I have also extended the debate to looking at the plant/ grass types that are present in the plant head.

So I'm actually not sure what else you want. What don't you understand? What else is rattling around that mind of yours because based on your  posts, you actually have no idea of much. You initially defended the track management at Hastings, and you now an advocate on introducing mechanical solutions without actually understanding what the real issues are. That's why I say you are symptomatic of the ails of the industry.

As for your language use stating I was "fudging the answer", or needing time to do so, take a piss against someone else's tree. You're a twat for posting that response...a person with no knowledge of much...I am generally very busy at the moment doing a real job.

As for the verbatim quote, what better a way of allowing the readers of this site to understand what the shite you are talking about. You talk such crap that something has to be factual.

As for the sand being introduced to Te Rapa, each track is different and Te Rapa was probably a peat based surface so probably needed something else. I am not privy to either knowing what the surface was, but being a Waikato native, I have experienced multiple properties that are peat based in the immediate area. Your complete ignorance of the topic is demonstrated by you suggesting that the draining solution to every track is a verti draining and sand!! Whew....let's hope you're no where near the policy making decisions for the improvement of the tracks in NZ.

As for going down 16 inches....yeah, let's all celebrate....let's crack the champagne.....we've only got 17 inches to go to get to the median of a healthy root profile....

Now to VSA's....petulant child beast....this is a description of a methodology to determine various soil characteristics in a formal protocol. It's used for everything soil and plant friendly, golf courses, race tracks, farms, gardens and lawns. One thing we know is that there is a problem on numerous tracks in NZ. We suspect it is a number of different things but without formally looking, no-one knows because the NZTR haven't done any to a certified standard. I've asked. I'd actually add ground truth radar as well in order to understand the soil profile down to 4 meters. You just may find something interesting.

So twat, stand up when you next piss against the bush to mark your territory....you don't want anything sticking to your shoes. Go away and try becoming a useful member of our society. Your approach sucks and you expose yourself intellectually.

Just what I thought .  Complete fudging with a long winded answer 

I haven’t said anything about using sand at any stage, it’s your normal approach to belittle somebody without really realising what you a writing. Nor have I said that the draining solution to every track is a verti draining and sand 

Offence is the best defence must be your motto.

its great that people can see you for what you are 

 

[Berri 2,131]

 

16 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

 

Just what I thought .  Complete fudging with a long winded answer 

I haven’t said anything about using sand at any stage, it’s your normal approach to belittle somebody without really realising what you a writing. Nor have I said that the draining solution to every track is a verti draining and sand 

Offence is the best defence must be your motto.

its great that people can see you for what you are 

 

You're a lost cause .

"but I would like to mention the fact of the best track surface turnarounds is Te Rapa based on sand "...you bought up Te Rapa and the use of sand....your quote. I simply used an industry quote so that our kind readers could understand the process. That industry quote was:

" It's done with spikes and the methodology is to then spray quantities of sand over the surface as the granules of sand keep the small spike holes clear so that the draining continues"....industry news not mine...that is how industry websites describe Vertidrain....not me

"just treating the soil topically will take 5 to 6 years if it works to get down to a depth" ...what would you know about this FFS? .You don't even know what a VSA is.  I've seen roots get to 1.2m in 9 months

"This VSA ideology  has it been proven on racetracks ? "...ignorance is ignorance to ask that question

Signing out....I don't stomach stupidity

[Whyisit 232]

54 minutes ago, Berri said:

 

 

“but I would like to mention the fact of the best track surface turnarounds is Te Rapa based on sand "...you bought up Te Rapa and the use of sand....your quote

my quote was

[Almost word for word off the Vertidrain Website  .     I haven’t mentioned sand but I would like to mention the fact of the best track surface turnarounds is Te Rapa based on sand .   I guess that doesn’t suit your story.]

One of my previous quotes

I have given you a way to speed up the process ,naturally I would expect to apply a soil laden with the appropriate remedial content to suit the organism

One of your previous quotes

If you decide to use machinery to remedy the problem, then you must also be prepared to apply scientific remedial practises because we are talking an organism here. If you don't treat the cause, you'll have to artificially correct the original problem repeatedly. Just machinery is probably not going to work in the long term.