JackSprat 947 Report post Posted October 16, 2017 38 minutes ago, Brodie said: BOLLOCKS! If the driver didn’t think that using the whip improves the horses performance then why on earth is the driver using the whip?????? Personally would be pissed if a driver of a horse that I had offloaded on just sat on it without any vigour. Most horses respond to the whip otherwise the drivers would not be taking a whip out with them!! So you are saying that Arden Rooney would have won the Cup without Manning using the whip on it???? Are you saying that Gammalite and Pure Steel would have been champions if the drivers didn’t carry a whip???? You continue to labour under the mistaken belief that horses run faster for the "bash merchants" than they do for the "modest whip users". The drivers premiership board in any jurisdiction you care to name would beg to differ! To compare the modern day horses to the likes of Gammalite and Pure Steel is yet more "1970's thinking". The breed has evolved a lot in the past 30 or40 years. You may have missed the changes. Cane whip were in vogue back then too. I bet you wish they were still in use! Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 16, 2017 51 minutes ago, JackSprat said: You continue to labour under the mistaken belief that horses run faster for the "bash merchants" than they do for the "modest whip users". The drivers premiership board in any jurisdiction you care to name would beg to differ! To compare the modern day horses to the likes of Gammalite and Pure Steel is yet more "1970's thinking". The breed has evolved a lot in the past 30 or40 years. You may have missed the changes. Cane whip were in vogue back then too. I bet you wish they were still in use! Of course I don't that is a stupid thing to say. There was no reason to alter the previous rule as it worked fine. The other rule that was brought in regarding interference and enquiries is also such a blatantly stupid rule but I suppose you agree with that one as well, Jack???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 Odd as it may seem, I agree with you about the interference/relegation rules being stupid! . It's simply an "internal rule" that makes no sense. But the whip rules are a totally different kettle of fish. They are determined by "internal" forces (the need to do, and be seen doing the right thing), and "external" forces (public expectation surrounding animal welfare). The whip rules are simply a product of evolution - 1. cane whips >>>> 2. swish whips >>>> 3. whip limits >>>> 4. no whips. We're currently in Phase 3, and Phase 4 isn't far away. Fartoomuch and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 17, 2017 19 minutes ago, JackSprat said: Odd as it may seem, I agree with you about the interference/relegation rules being stupid! . It's simply an "internal rule" that makes no sense. But the whip rules are a totally different kettle of fish. They are determined by "internal" forces (the need to do, and be seen doing the right thing), and "external" forces (public expectation surrounding animal welfare). The whip rules are simply a product of evolution - 1. cane whips >>>> 2. swish whips >>>> 3. whip limits >>>> 4. no whips. We're currently in Phase 3, and Phase 4 isn't far away. Oz haven't banned the whips have they! So the interference rule was brought in by the same organisation that brought in the whip rule. so it is possible Jack that they are consistently bringing in stupid rules. I reiterate that there was no pressure whatsoever for harness to change the whip rule was there? If so please quote your source if you can't then you are clearly wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 You don't need to be "under pressure" in order do the right thing. Any fool can see a world wide trend towards animal welfare, and "the fools" at HRNZ are in this instance doing the right thing. In my opinion anyone who has a mindset of "only doing the right thing" when pressured to do so has some serious character flaws! Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,711 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 6 hours ago, Brodie said: If a horse has had an advantage over others, it needs to be disqualified. Look out Lazarus! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, JackSprat said: You don't need to be "under pressure" in order do the right thing. Any fool can see a world wide trend towards animal welfare, and "the fools" at HRNZ are in this instance doing the right thing. In my opinion anyone who has a mindset of "only doing the right thing" when pressured to do so has some serious character flaws! So Jack, seem you could not provide any source we can take it that there has been no pressure from anyone!!! ! Were you one of the ones who pushed the rule thru and now trying to defend it? Do we know if there was any complaints lodged by any trainers, owners, punters or horses that the rule needed to be changed??? Putting a no. on the no. of hits was blatantly stupid and you know it. Some drivers inflict more on a horse than the ones who are getting fined or suspended due to the ridiculous way the rule is ve8 g administered. Some hit a lot harder than the ones found guilty and just because supposedly it is less than 10 because of the broken hits!!!! Rule is a farce and needs amendment. Havent got a problem with fining or suspending if the driver does hit excessively but the previous rule was perfectly adequate but you won’t admit it will you??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, JackSprat said: Odd as it may seem, I agree with you about the interference/relegation rules being stupid! . It's simply an "internal rule" that makes no sense. But the whip rules are a totally different kettle of fish. They are determined by "internal" forces (the need to do, and be seen doing the right thing), and "external" forces (public expectation surrounding animal welfare). The whip rules are simply a product of evolution - 1. cane whips >>>> 2. swish whips >>>> 3. whip limits >>>> 4. no whips. We're currently in Phase 3, and Phase 4 isn't far away. Don't forget black whips, whips used to be any color, now its just black as they don't show up as much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotare_Hunter 748 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 20 hours ago, Double R said: Hi Newmarket, I actually think we are seeing a delightful side of Brodie being facetious. I might be wrong, but that is how I read it. Cheers. Robert. Arveeae's dear old mum. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Brodie said: So Jack, seem you could not provide any source we can take it that there has been no pressure from anyone!!! ! Were you one of the ones who pushed the rule thru and now trying to defend it? Do we know if there was any complaints lodged by any trainers, owners, punters or horses that the rule needed to be changed??? Putting a no. on the no. of hits was blatantly stupid and you know it. Some drivers inflict more on a horse than the ones who are getting fined or suspended due to the ridiculous way the rule is ve8 g administered. Some hit a lot harder than the ones found guilty and just because supposedly it is less than 10 because of the broken hits!!!! Rule is a farce and needs amendment. Havent got a problem with fining or suspending if the driver does hit excessively but the previous rule was perfectly adequate but you won’t admit it will you??? This is what this whole thread has been about and now you post this contradictory crap which is exactly the opposite of your earlier posts- you really do need help and urgently Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotare_Hunter 748 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, Newmarket said: This is what this whole thread has been about and now you post this contradictory crap which is exactly the opposite of your earlier posts- you really do need help and urgently The beyond basket has vacancies. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Newmarket said: This is what this whole thread has been about and now you post this contradictory crap which is exactly the opposite of your earlier posts- you really do need help and urgently Newmarket, there was nothing at all wrong with the previous flippen rule. 10 hits inside the last 400m is not excessive unless they have the whip coming down from a height. No help needed from this end! It is the stupidness of putting a number on it being 10 when some that whack 9 would being doing more harm than a driver hitting 11times. Nathan Williamson got done at Oamaru a few months ago for excess and yet he barely put any effort into it but just because the Stipes thought it was over 10,he gets done. That has always been my point that the rule was not thought out before it was railroaded through!!!! ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede 67 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 Here's an update on the Australian view on whipping: http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=34779 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harewood 477 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Swede said: Here's an update on the Australian view on whipping: A very good article summarizing the world wide view on whipping in Harness racing. If this article doesnt persuade all the "pro whipping" lobby that they are in a minority and have not got the welfare of of Harness racing at heart then nothing will. The concern of animal welfare is always evolving and the use of the whip in all horse racing must evolve as well if horse racing is to continue and be a viable form of entertainment for future generations. Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 8 hours ago, Brodie said: Newmarket, there was nothing at all wrong with the previous flippen rule. 10 hits inside the last 400m is not excessive unless they have the whip coming down from a height. No help needed from this end! It is the stupidness of putting a number on it being 10 when some that whack 9 would being doing more harm than a driver hitting 11times. Nathan Williamson got done at Oamaru a few months ago for excess and yet he barely put any effort into it but just because the Stipes thought it was over 10,he gets done. That has always been my point that the rule was not thought out before it was railroaded through!!!! ! Havent got a problem with fining or suspending if the driver does hit excessively = Brodie = You obviously do have a problem. Others can see it bit obviously you cant Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Newmarket said: Havent got a problem with fining or suspending if the driver does hit excessively = Brodie = You obviously do have a problem. Others can see it bit obviously you cant Ozzie have now totally backtracked their stupid idea to ban the whip! Nz will never ever ban the whip or the industry is stuffed. Havent got a problem with wrist only and looks like no restriction to the number with the wrist in Oz. Why on earth the no. 10 was brought in is hard to fathom with the anomalies that come with it, The rule was not properly thought out and clearly shows that it is wrong now that you compare it to Ozzie who also rushed their rule thru and now have egg on their faces!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 35 minutes ago, Brodie said: Ozzie have now totally backtracked their stupid idea to ban the whip! Nz will never ever ban the whip or the industry is stuffed. Havent got a problem with wrist only and looks like no restriction to the number with the wrist in Oz. Why on earth the no. 10 was brought in is hard to fathom with the anomalies that come with it, The rule was not properly thought out and clearly shows that it is wrong now that you compare it to Ozzie who also rushed their rule thru and now have egg on their faces!!! Your highlighted sentence infers that you have Nostradamus qualities, amazing!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 41 minutes ago, Brodie said: Ozzie have now totally backtracked their stupid idea to ban the whip! Nz will never ever ban the whip or the industry is stuffed. Havent got a problem with wrist only and looks like no restriction to the number with the wrist in Oz. Why on earth the no. 10 was brought in is hard to fathom with the anomalies that come with it, The rule was not properly thought out and clearly shows that it is wrong now that you compare it to Ozzie who also rushed their rule thru and now have egg on their faces!!! Just because you and a few slow learning drivers can't understand the meaning of the number 10, doesn't make the rule "poorly thought out". In fact it lays the rule out in black and white, and makes it very simple to understand. What it also does is highlight the fact that the aforementioned drivers, and yourself of course, are exceptionally slow learners! And there's nothing surer than the days of whips are numbered. I won't put a specific number on how long before they're banned completely, as that would just add a whole new level of desperation to your attempts to cling to "the bad old days of flogging dead horses"! Spikecity 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotare_Hunter 748 Report post Posted October 17, 2017 10 hours ago, harewood said: A very good article summarizing the world wide view on whipping in Harness racing. If this article doesnt persuade all the "pro whipping" lobby that they are in a minority and have not got the welfare of of Harness racing at heart then nothing will. The concern of animal welfare is always evolving and the use of the whip in all horse racing must evolve as well if horse racing is to continue and be a viable form of entertainment for future generations. Its good article but might have benefited from a balance perpective if they had included the Brodsters thoughts. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, JackSprat said: Just because you and a few slow learning drivers can't understand the meaning of the number 10, doesn't make the rule "poorly thought out". In fact it lays the rule out in black and white, and makes it very simple to understand. What it also does is highlight the fact that the aforementioned drivers, and yourself of course, are exceptionally slow learners! And there's nothing surer than the days of whips are numbered. I won't put a specific number on how long before they're banned completely, as that would just add a whole new level of desperation to your attempts to cling to "the bad old days of flogging dead horses"! Jack I appreciate that you must be a maths genius but it must be flippen hard to be out on the track driving a horse and needing to concentrate and steer and from the 400m also need to be counting the number of hits with the whip. Ridiculous Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spikecity 747 Report post Posted October 18, 2017 5 hours ago, Brodie said: Jack I appreciate that you must be a maths genius but it must be flippen hard to be out on the track driving a horse and needing to concentrate and steer and from the 400m also need to be counting the number of hits with the whip. Ridiculous Appreciate that multi tasking may be difficult for you but why do the top drivers find it easy to do???? Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted October 18, 2017 46 minutes ago, Spikecity said: Appreciate that multi tasking may be difficult for you but why don't the top drivers find it easy to do???? Spike, so,what you are saying above is that the top drivers don’t find it easy! The reality is though that top drivers will always be top drivers irrespective of rules being changed just like “The Brodster” being a winning punter irrespective of him being restricted, Spike! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 20, 2017 Victoria's chief steward Terry Bailey has warned jockeys who breach whip rules in the Caulfield Cup they cannot expect to be riding in the Cox Plate. Bailey revealed RV stewards have consciously slapped down more suspensions in the last few months for whip breaches, rather than solely enforcing monetary penalties. Jockeys are limited to using the whip five times before the 100m mark. Bailey told Racenet any jockey in the Caulfield Cup who flagrantly abused whip rules could not expect to be riding in the Cox Plate at Moonee Valley the following Saturday. "If a rider wants to breach the whip rule in the Caulfield Cup, they just want to have in the back of their mind whether they want to be there on Cox Plate day or not," Bailey said. "Certainly in the last couple of months we have stepped up suspensions for whip breaches, we believe that is more of a deterrent (than a fine) for riders who breach the rules. "If they get it wrong by a couple we do take into account the totality of the whip use inside the last 100m. "But once they are getting up into that nine or 10 strikes area they are being suspended. There have been quite a few riders suspended for that in recent times." As recently as last Saturday, apprentice Ben Allen was suspended for six meetings for whipping Group II Herbert Power Stakes winner Lord Fandango five times more than permitted before the 100m. Allen is available to ride Lord Fandango in the Caulfield Cup on Saturday, but any whip suspensions coming out of the Caulfield Cup are likely to be stiffer given it is a Group I, $3million race. Bailey said jockeys were always entitled to look at the film for potential whip protests but conceded it would take an enormous whip rule breach for stewards to consider upholding a whip protest. Queensland came under the national spotlight for upholding a whip protest last year when Stonecast was awarded a race after dead-heating with Rosella at the Sunshine Coast. But seeing a whip protest upheld during the spring carnival appears unlikely. "I would have to say it would have to be a fairly gross breach of the rule before we would consider amending placings," Bailey said. "But if we are faced with it we will look at it. "Jockeys have the right to look at the film if they feel aggrieved and they are entitled to lodge a (whip) objection. "But the big question is how you equate the nature of the breach to the winning margin – and does it (excessive whip use) make the horse go faster?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted October 20, 2017 thoroughbred rules re whip are different to harness- frank phelan I think got fined 300for 12 hits beaten a head. I guess the rule is the rule . like any other sport u mightn't like it but u have to adhere to it I saw Richie mcaw arguing about a decision plenty of time but the ref didn't make the rules. so where does the"blame" lie. who made this rule- im not sure. . from what I can see the last 2 were very light flicks last night.. but we must remember the stipes police the rules the jca acts on the rules. they are just doing their job.i don't agree with the whip rules but the people who made the rule are the only ones who can change it. the horseman .trainers can make submissions I guess - the real beef I have is that is about animal welfare- I cant see that hitting the shaft or hitting the dust sheet hurts a horse yet that is counted. no one I know wants to hurt a horse.why would you. perception we are told- I thought it should be about facts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted October 27, 2017 Very good critique of the whip rules here in NZ by Mick on the Box Seat. Not sure one person on here would agree but hey thats democracy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...