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Sheepy

New staying race???

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This week there has been a total of 5 staying races around the country. A 630m race at invercargil, 3 645m races at addington and 1 755m race at Wanganui.

I believe it is time a new group race was introduced at addington over the 645m trip as there appears to genuine demand for races of this distance. 

My preference would be for it to be elegible to c0-c2 dist dogs, however if it was restricted to just c1&2 dogs it would create a bit of a build up for it as trainers would attempt to get their potential stayers to win a maiden in the weeks an months leading up to the race.  

Could name it, The Groovey Eye. (Track record holder since 2007)

Looking at the group race calander there is no group staying race from 25  September until 22 of March. There is a huge window to fit a race of this nature in. 

 

James

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4 minutes ago, Sheepy said:

This week there has been a total of 5 staying races around the country. A 630m race at invercargil, 3 645m races at addington and 1 755m race at Wanganui.

I believe it is time a new group race was introduced at addington over the 645m trip as there appears to genuine demand for races of this distance. 

My preference would be for it to be elegible to c0-c2 dist dogs, however if it was restricted to just c1&2 dogs it would create a bit of a build up for it as trainers would attempt to get their potential stayers to win a maiden in the weeks an months leading up to the race.  

Could name it, The Groovey Eye. (Track record holder since 2007)

Looking at the group race calander there is no group staying race from 25  September until 22 of March. There is a huge window to fit a race of this nature in. 

 

James

600 mtr races are garbage. They do not deserve to be called staying races. They certainly do not deserve Grp status. All Grp staying races should be 700 plus. 600 mtr races are  glorified c5 middle distance races for open class dogs that struggle at the middle distance. These dogs use these races as an extra string to their bow at the expense of lower class dogs. 700 mtr plus races equal out the opportunities and bring the open class dogs that compete in these back to the field. Believe me, I love staying races, but these shortened events are clayton staying races. Thats my opinion anyway.

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Good idea Sheep especially as there is such a big gap between distance group races.Also it would create a much bigger pool of entrants as the 779m silver collar distance is way too long for most dogs hence why they hardly ever get more than 2 or 3 heats and only a few of them actually run out the 779m distance.

I think the 645m at Addington would be ideal for a group race.

AC

 

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Yes 779m is too far formost dogs Craig, that is because it is a stayers race not suitable for most dogs. For many many years there have been plenty of dogs that could run it and further.

     At the moment 527 is too far for the majority and if we keep accepting this it wont be long before 400m is too far for most.

 The more races we have further than 600m the better off we will be towards being able to identify the dogs that are lkiely to stay but it would be wrong to make a group staying race under 700m. They should indicate true stayers not dogs who are almost stayers

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10 hours ago, GOM said:

The more races we have further than 600m the better off we will be towards being able to identify the dogs that are lkiely to stay but it would be wrong to make a group staying race under 700m. They should indicate true stayers not dogs who are almost stayers

We are almost on the same wave length it seems. The more 600+m races the more chance of identifying dogs that will stay the ultimate trips. 

You've said it would be wrong to call a 645m race a group race, however there are 2 Group 1s and a group 2 over the the sprint distance... I'm not saying you personally agree with that either. But that's the way things are. Maybe we don't call it a group race then but have it as heats and final feature worth a substantial amount of money. I genuinely reckon it could attract at least 4 heats at the moment. 

 

James

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11 hours ago, Joe blogs said:

 the Nancy Cobain is raced over 600 and is a group race

And thats a travesty. It was once a real staying race in honour of Nancy whom trained with her husband Ivan many true stayers. It was run over 766 mtrs until some bright spark demeaned it by reducing the distance to where it is now. Nancy would be turning in her grave. Staying races need to be true tests. Have all your 600 mtr races, but crowning them with Grp status sends the wrong message, they need to be for true stayers.

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On 8/15/2017 at 9:14 AM, aquaman said:

And thats a travesty. It was once a real staying race in honour of Nancy whom trained with her husband Ivan many true stayers. It was run over 766 mtrs until some bright spark demeaned it by reducing the distance to where it is now. Nancy would be turning in her grave. Staying races need to be true tests. Have all your 600 mtr races, but crowning them with Grp status sends the wrong message, they need to be for true stayers.

Unfortunately John, they have already done it with the sprinters  ... Just another Joke

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At Addington Raceway in  the 2016-2018 season there were 1617 greyhound races. This total was made up of 1132 races over 295m/448 over 520m/29 over 645m/8 over 732m.

When I first became interested in racing I noted that every Harness race meeting had to have a two-mile race. That is a long time ago and I do not know when it was that the apparently compulsory two miler/3200m was waived. I assume it was brought about because the breed was changing. Speed was of the essence. The owned/trained/driven harness horse was disappearing. Colonial stallions gave way to USA sires. Where once a sub-two-minute qualifier was guaranteed success on the racetrack that was no longer the case. Where we once marvelled at a last quarter in 29, we are now not impressed.

The very big races such as the NZ Cup remained at 3200m,  the Auckland Cup has reverted to 3200m. The Westports and the Reeftons still maintain the ultimate trip.  However, outside those major races, the scene has changed. For example, the 1950m is becoming increasingly common at Addington while the 2200m is also very popular at many other harness meetings.

What does this have to do with greyhound racing? That is over to you but I do see a parallel and the figures in the second sentence above are illuminating. 

I know there are greyhound people who state that the 600+ is a glorified middle distance but that is not so. A 600+ race for greyhounds is officially a distance race. I do think the 645m distance is a more appropriate one than 603m but they are both distance races. 

The purpose of this thread was to argue for greater recognition of the 645m-type distance race for greyhounds by having Group status or, at least, a Feature or Listed appellation.

We will continue to have the traditional 700+m races such as the Silver Collar and the NZ Stayers' Cup.

Nevertheless I would argue that there is a gap to be filled as the Addington figures indicate.

Someone has suggested a series.

What about a 645m Final along the lines of the Waterloo Cup?

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Good post Jape but I would argue that while 603m has been declared an official staying race it is in practice not. Johnno would probably love to reply to you but is indisposed at the moment but he is right that any reasonable c5 dog would get 500m whereas many would not get past the 700m mark in front, and that defines staying races. 

   It was not that long ago that the official middle distance race at Auckland 580m, and there were plenty of contestants.

  If we follow your logic then the distances will keep going backwards. I have made the point in the past that it is probably already too late, which is going along with your argument but I can still see the point of the other side in that if we make it more acceptable and pretend we are we are developing stayers when we are actually degrading them we are just making the slope more slippery.

   No simple answer but as you say it affects all codes. 

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Another point Peter concerning the comparison with the Ben Hur's . When they stopped running compulsary 3200 races and more 2200m races they didn't include 2200 meter races in their staying definition as we have done.

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On 8/30/2017 at 11:21 AM, GOM said:

Another point Peter concerning the comparison with the Ben Hur's . When they stopped running compulsary 3200 races and more 2200m races they didn't include 2200 meter races in their staying definition as we have done.

"   ... as we have done is not correct." The 600+ races have been distance races for a long time and remain so. Your argument would have substance if the 520m races had been changed from middle distance to sprint but that has not happened and will not.

I note that at Alexandra Park last night there were 8 races at 2200m and one at 1700m.

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On 8/30/2017 at 11:14 AM, GOM said:

Good post Jape but I would argue that while 603m has been declared an official staying race it is in practice not. Johnno would probably love to reply to you but is indisposed at the moment but he is right that any reasonable c5 dog would get 500m whereas many would not get past the 700m mark in front, and that defines staying races. 

   It was not that long ago that the official middle distance race at Auckland 580m, and there were plenty of contestants.

  If we follow your logic then the distances will keep going backwards. I have made the point in the past that it is probably already too late, which is going along with your argument but I can still see the point of the other side in that if we make it more acceptable and pretend we are we are developing stayers when we are actually degrading them we are just making the slope more slippery.

   No simple answer but as you say it affects all codes. 

To say that "it is in practice not" is not correct. In practice it is a distance race.

What you are really saying is that for you, for aquaman,  and for many others, you do not see it as a true distance race. That is your opinion and I respect that. However, that is not what I am on about in this thread. I am simply taking up Sheepy's point and stating that the majority of distance races are at 600+, not 700+.  He would like to see a gap filled on the calendar and I agree with that. I prefer to see 645m as that does require some stamina. Almost each time there is a 645m race at Addington, one or two promising 520m greyhounds have been found out, initially at least. As a wiser person than I once said: All greyhounds can run over distance. It's just that some take a lot longer than others.

Incidentally, I am reminded of what happened to the Wellington Cup for the thoroughbreds. It was changed from the time-honoured 3200m to 2400m for a few years then it reverted to 3200m much to the pleasure of those who see 3200m as the ultimate test for staying gallopers. I am sure aquaman would have approved. I know that I did.

"   ...   if we follow your logic then the distance will keep going backwards". This is a reductio ad absurdum and, as the phrase indicates, it is absurd.

Cheers

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Make all c1 sprint tier races. $500 and put that money into middle distance and distance racing. So bored of watching meeting after meeting fill of c1 sprints. If they are no longer viable, people will look to breed and rear stronger dogs. Than over a ten year period, start getting rid of the 300 m distances altogether and make 400 minimum.

Just trying to breed for stronger dogs should help increase the numbers over middle distance and the flow on affects would also mean more distance dogs aswell

let's be honest, ring the bell has shown us just how weak our distance racing is over here right now and I personally feel as though that the number of dogs being breed and only racing in c1 sprints is apart of the problem. 

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Alltheway. You've missed the point slightly I think. You said 'in 10years time.' I believe the time is perfect NOW. 

My preference for a race/series over the 645 would be best 32 nomed. An I think if the prize is big enough more than 32 dogs will be traveled all round the country to compete for it. 

Two reasons I'd cap it at 32, first, 645s can be a bit messy so only first an second proceed to final. Not having to worry about fastest seconds etc. second, trainers will have to try an win a 600+ race first to garuntee a start more or less so adds to the build up. 

 

As as for those arguing about whether the 645  is a distance race or not. It's really quiet eralavent. The point is people are starting to breed dogs that can run further and they should be rewarded. Maybe we call it a 'distance middle distance.' 

Also john moans about strong 500m dogs stepping up. I think that's what adds to the beauty of a series like this. Like a good boxer, he'll compete in different weight devisions. Who would win if Eagle tee, mazu, ride ain't over ring the bell and cristiane cyborg were all in the same race. 

 

James

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11 hours ago, alltheway!!! said:

Make all c1 sprint tier races. $500 and put that money into middle distance and distance racing. So bored of watching meeting after meeting fill of c1 sprints. If they are no longer viable, people will look to breed and rear stronger dogs. Than over a ten year period, start getting rid of the 300 m distances altogether and make 400 minimum.

Just trying to breed for stronger dogs should help increase the numbers over middle distance and the flow on affects would also mean more distance dogs aswell

let's be honest, ring the bell has shown us just how weak our distance racing is over here right now and I personally feel as though that the number of dogs being breed and only racing in c1 sprints is apart of the problem. 

Couldn't agree more. 

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