Paddymc 24 Report post Posted July 3, 2017 As a novice, I am finding your posts really interesting Swynford - keep them coming! La Zip 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad 1,558 Report post Posted July 4, 2017 Any stallion tips for a gallant guru mare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 4, 2017 Thanks Paddy.....I will put together a host of examples of hypothetical mating's with Wrote. The pattern that I will be using is seen in many outstanding horses. It is using the 'male line of the mares' and connecting these with the brood-mare sires in the stallion. Creating two 'line breeding patterns ' is also important. Wrote's sire High Chaparral is another great example of this. La Zip 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 4, 2017 Another example of using the mares male line to connect with the stallions brood-mare sire. The second pattern is just a repeat of the first. Paddymc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 4, 2017 Paddymc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 5, 2017 23 hours ago, Shad said: Any stallion tips for a gallant guru mare. The first place with any mare in my opinion would be her male line, 'top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion' so a mating with Wrote would be perfect in that department, It would'nt bother me that both stallion and mare are from the same sire line, by itself this dosen't interest me but along with the other duplication I think it adds to the out come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 5, 2017 This is the same pattern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 5, 2017 Winner of this years Epsom Oaks, sire and dam SAME sire line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad 1,558 Report post Posted July 5, 2017 Thanks for taking your time to do those breeding charts, very interesting and you know your stuff, hopefully wrote will produce some good progeny, its a tough old game for the stallions, and some that don't preform end up in far away countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 6, 2017 Agree Shad.... Even the best stallions only produce a Group One winner about 1 in 30 runners. O'Reilly was more like 1 in every 90 so tough for brood-mare owners too. Zabeel was a champion stallion but could sire a plodder as well. Much of my research today is focused around mares that can produce two Group ONE winners. Line breeding appears to be a big factor. I think there is much to be gained and very little to loose by using line breeding to achieve better results. Volksraad mares should prove a great match with Wrote. With that in mind I think a second pattern involving the mares lower in the pedigree is essential. Shad 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 6, 2017 Using the 'male line of the mares' lower in the pedigree and connecting these with the brood-mare sires in the stallion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,961 Report post Posted July 6, 2017 Don't lose sight of the fact that if he is, or any stallion is a bad stallion, it doesn't matter what the crosses or inbreeding are, the results will be commiserate with his overall results. Conversly a good stallions results will be improved by clever (for want of better words) matings. Sometimes I thing that theorists can't see the wood for the trees and go on breeding to bad stallions, thinking that their theories will win out, when satisticly they can't. Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 Would have to agree with Insider. We can all bring a pedigree up to show a successful cross but I would also want to know how many failures there have been. Sadlers Wells line sire over a Sadlers Wells line broodmare has been very disappointing. And while I understand what Swynford is explaining on the tail line of the stallion and the sire lane of the mare is different, I feel giving 'the exception' example in Enable above over 'the norm' ( or the majority) does not explain to the breeder his real chances. Good stallions improve our odds. Certain sires lines work with a majority of the New Zealand broodmare band. Certain sires leave a more consistent type who in turn become very good racehorses. The other point is looking at real track performance. If a horse has won a Group One race, did he beat horses who performed or one at Group One level after that race? Or did he beat horses that got into a 2yo Group One race based on winning condition races as lead up races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 I agree Insider there are stallions that will never produce a superior race horse and I for one certainly wouldn't go on breeding to a BAD STALLION, The above philosophy would apply with a mare also. However even with the so called PROVEN stallions I think there is still huge risk, at best and this is being generous 1 / 3rd of their progeny may pay their way, 1 / 3rd win but never recoup their outlay and 1 / 3rd never even win a race. Paying $65 or $100K for those stats dosen't make sense for me. Wrote is an unproven stallion, is exceptionally well priced at 5K and in my opinion has some beautiful bloodlines in the 'right places' for brood-mare owners wishing to tap into them. When looking at the pedigree of a stallion I look at them this way WROTE by High Chaparral out of Desert Classic by Green Desert High Standard by Kris Durrah by Nijinsky Special by Forli Thong by Nantallah etc So after looking at his female line, and ways to line breed to it, then the sire of his dam Green Desert ....I will now look at the sire of his 2nd dam Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 Kris ...for starters it should be pointed out Wrote carries a double of Kris, in 'brood-mare sire' positions. He appears as both the sire of his 2nd dam and also his sire High Chaparral's 2nd dam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 So when planning thoroughbred mating's this gives duplications, or line breeding patterns through both parents of the stallion. This pattern is similar when looking at two champion sires from the past in Le Filou and Sir Tristram. Teddy and Gainsborough belong to the same 'female family' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 This pedigree displayed earlier Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 So when 'line breeding' to Kris one would think the odds are doubled. Kris unfortunately is a bloodline that is vary rare in these parts of the world but is a bloodline of the highest quality and something I associate with early maturing very fast two year olds. According to Frankie Dettori the fastest two year old he has ever ridden Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 a great example of using the 'mares male line' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 Paddymc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 Possibly one of the only ways to use the horse Diesis in New Zealand is with mares lower in the pedigree by the stallion Dagger's Drawn. Paddymc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 The 4th dam of Kris is Sweet Angel who is the also the dam of Sucaryl. I believe an important part of this horse's pedigree. Paddymc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted July 7, 2017 yawn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 8, 2017 Perhaps a great time to take a look at some of the stars of the 2016/17 racing season and look at their pedigree make up and see if my methods and understanding hold true to them. Much of what I have learnt comes from studying a wide range of stallions and mares and over a wide time frame and discovering common patterns. . In the stallion ranks one of the stars would have to be Makfi and what a great loss to New Zealand he has been. This stallion's very first Group One winner came in the Northern Hemisphere with a horse called Make Believe. And exactly as I am copying here with Wrote it came from 'line breeding'. More to the point it came from a mare who's top line is the same as his bottom line or ' female family' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 8, 2017 His star in New Zealand of course is New Zealand Filly of the Year, New Zealand and Australian Oaks winner Bonneval. The duplication again is on the top line of the mare but this time connecting with a brood-mare sire in Green Desert. In fact the ' male line' of the first three dams in this pedigree have been repeated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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