beef 74 Report post Posted May 27, 2017 Longowner is 100% correct. Maybe South Island trainers should be treated like children - seen but not heard. They have no alternative so should shut up until they do. The new system may not be perfect yet but with time and a few adjustments it will work. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted May 27, 2017 I'm gathering most comments about this are from south islanders, I maybe wrong!!! But remember this system was trailed in the north island for six months and the majority were not happy and tried to get them to can it before it reached the South Island. The south were warned by the north not to let them bring it in. There were meetings in the north and the instigators were told it needed revamping. so now that it has reach the south it has not taken long for them to realise the north had a point, but no one would listen. The north put up with it for six months, the south have only had it for a month of two. stakes won with a few tweaks here and there going on age, and starts, is the way to go, just like the fields are chosen for our premier jewels meeting, no one complains because it is in black and white. Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted May 27, 2017 1 hour ago, 45yearsofharness said: I'm gathering most comments about this are from south islanders, I maybe wrong!!! But remember this system was trailed in the north island for six months and the majority were not happy and tried to get them to can it before it reached the South Island. The south were warned by the north not to let them bring it in. There were meetings in the north and the instigators were told it needed revamping. so now that it has reach the south it has not taken long for them to realise the north had a point, but no one would listen. The north put up with it for six months, the south have only had it for a month of two. stakes won with a few tweaks here and there going on age, and starts, is the way to go, just like the fields are chosen for our premier jewels meeting, no one complains because it is in black and white. Can you point to any of these as justification for what these trainers are saying?. 1) Has turnover dropped. 2) Have field sizes decreased. 3)are you getting more short priced favourites 4)Are horses being retired because they can no longer find races they are competitive in. If so can you advise where their data came from. Also you refer to trainers being unhappy. What specifically are they unhappy about? Has it anything to do with wanting the good young horses held back from progressing through the grades? Thejanitor, LongOwner and Happy Sunrise 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 1 hour ago, what a post said: Can you point to any of these as justification for what these trainers are saying?. 1) Has turnover dropped. 2) Have field sizes decreased. 3)are you getting more short priced favourites 4)Are horses being retired because they can no longer find races they are competitive in. If so can you advise where their data came from. Also you refer to trainers being unhappy. What specifically are they unhappy about? Has it anything to do with wanting the good young horses held back from progressing through the grades? I only know there were meetings, not sure what issues they raised. I have heard things such as the young horses get penalised for their wins against their own age and by the time they get to normal racing in aged races they are to high in the points to be competitive. ( no I don't have any examples) Also I have heard it it seems to benefit horses that have won more races but are not competitive anymore so are dropped to a grade were they are well above the rest of the field. Horses that have won 5 -6 races and end up racing maidens. (Trotters again mainly) Therefore the system is great for some but not the majority How would anyone out there feel if you had a first starter and it was racing a 5-6 winner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 for a 6 win horse to get down to under 50 rating(maiden rating )the horse must have had over 25races without winning. I think a good maiden would have no fears racing that horse. also non win races are still carded and preferred by clubs to give the newcomers a good chance agaist sim horses. I have discussed the changes with many horsemen in north and most say they don't like the new system but don't really explain why. . The new system could have money won barriers incorporated say 40 to 50 rating for horses that have won less than 20000. and another say up to 55 rating for horses less than 30000. but of course the horses that had agood burst and picked up a good 3 or 4 year old race but is now out of form and not comptetitive has no races under this system . I know it was considered by the team set up . I say give the new system a chance it might just "f ::::::::::n work !!! LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 57 minutes ago, 45yearsofharness said: no I don't have any examples 58 minutes ago, 45yearsofharness said: have heard things 58 minutes ago, 45yearsofharness said: Also I have heard 41 minutes ago, john legend said: many horsemen in north and most say they don't like the new system but don't really explain why. . Not getting at you 45. Just to be clear. But WAP is correct. One must provide specific examples and data to support the claims that are being made. I would expect the trainers to have made a presentation outlining this at the meetings. They could have given one example from their stable to show how the new system is not working and then they would have had a big list and something to work from. Then they could have been posted on here for everyone to see the argument. Unfortunately, heresay and gossip seem to be ruling the day. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Happy Sunrise said: Not getting at you 45. Just to be clear. But WAP is correct. Thank goodness for that I don't disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsvman 294 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 The point most trainers are angry about is the discretion of alloctaed points as its not consistent some horses are getting points for placings and others not when it could be the same stake and condition of races . They want it black and white so for just an example say race above 9k every win 10 every 2nd is 2pts every 3rd is one and 4th opts , then maybe a race under 9k every win 7pts every second 2nd 1 pts 3rd and 4th 0pts plus both races 5or lower -1 . They don't want to see 2 races for under 9k and one race the winner get 8 and second horse 0 and they other race winner get 6 and second get 2 . That's the main part frustrating trainers is not knowing what the handicappers will give each horse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 the principle of being flexible is a little unwieldy but it is the best means of grading a horse performance possible . as stated they look at overall quality of the opposition and the quality of the performance in the race. This is a time consuming,difficult task for to rate every horse in every race and then allow a trainer/owner to protest a decision which will be carefully considered. .what more can they do to be fair to everyone . Just give it a go. The old system was getting nowhere with every 2nd horse moving up or down into c1 class. ! the claimers were to solve many probs but they have not taken off as expected. I have had my horse given 1 or 2 point relief and another not when we wanted it. . I hope hrnz stay strong and say they will review the system in 12 months time. (and I have no love for HRNZ I can assure racecafers) LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsvman 294 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 I'm certain the system will work and help keep horses here and racing bigger fields. Time and a few tweaks will solve everything I'm sure LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner 217 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 2 hours ago, hsvman said: The point most trainers are angry about is the discretion of alloctaed points as its not consistent some horses are getting points for placings and others not when it could be the same stake and condition of races . They want it black and white so for just an example say race above 9k every win 10 every 2nd is 2pts every 3rd is one and 4th opts , then maybe a race under 9k every win 7pts every second 2nd 1 pts 3rd and 4th 0pts plus both races 5or lower -1 . They don't want to see 2 races for under 9k and one race the winner get 8 and second horse 0 and they other race winner get 6 and second get 2 . That's the main part frustrating trainers is not knowing what the handicappers will give each horse Why don't they spell it out with examples/model to consider instead of slandering people who are trying to implement a system they in part wanted . They have a lot to say against a lot of things without providing alternatives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsvman 294 Report post Posted May 28, 2017 At every meeting I've attended the committees have put forward a suggested black and white system . Hrnz just don't seemed to take it in That this one small detail of a black and white point system would stop alot of the complaining as no one could argue if everyone is treated the same Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 19, 2017 Looks like they have made some good changes to current handicapping system, Nothing major but does seem a bit fairer. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john legend 735 Report post Posted July 19, 2017 6 hours ago, what a post said: Looks like they have made some good changes to current handicapping system, Nothing major but does seem a bit fairer. agree wap. the changes that the trainers of canterbury wanted have all been accepted. with much less discretion so noone can complain they are being badly treated. now lets see if we can all let it roll for the 2017/18 . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner 217 Report post Posted July 22, 2017 If it has been improved could Mark Jones and his loud uncouth gang apologise for their behaviour and express some gratitude. At HRNZ AGM the trainers representatives should we removed from the board and put on notice re slander and unprofessional conduct. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz 62 Report post Posted July 22, 2017 6 hours ago, LongOwner said: At HRNZ AGM the trainers representatives should we removed from the board and put on notice re slander and unprofessional conduct. Longowner you appear to hold a very embittered view towards trainers. Making blanket reference to selfish, classless rabble and accusations of slander and unprofessionalism.... Heard of the pot calling the kettle black? At least these "outspoken" trainers are being proactive and trying to strive for ongoing improvements instead of just accepting the status quo. Perhaps going forward the approach could be more unified. And let's face it, there are a few on the board at HRNZ that could do with a shake up... Perform and deliver results or move on. JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted July 22, 2017 16 hours ago, LongOwner said: If it has been improved could Mark Jones and his loud uncouth gang apologise for their behaviour and express some gratitude. At HRNZ AGM the trainers representatives should we removed from the board and put on notice re slander and unprofessional conduct. Chance would be a fine thing LO. Journeyman Jones is always moaning about something which is why local media and Greg cant wait to interview him for his latest negative thoughs/comments. Given the way his team has gone at Addington for a while its not surprising he is unhappy given he has to travel south for results LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 22, 2017 Ive always thought Mark Jones was someone that was an good example of what could be achieved in racing through hard work,being very talented and having the right connections. He appears to have set himself up very well with a top training establishment and apparently is very well thought of by those that work for him and those he trains for, One of the reasons the media go to him for comments is because he is willing to express an opinion, sometimes one that may annoy some, but he always appears to act with the best interests of the industry at heart, I'm not sure why some on here feel he deserves some personal criticism, still I think another thing that helps in this industry is having a thick skin,i m guessing he probably has that by now. kimtapper, lamour, Kotare_Hunter and 5 others 8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner 217 Report post Posted July 23, 2017 All media are lazy and harness journalists are no different - they are very fair weather supporters of particular in form stable(s) and accept MJ comments as gospel as they cannot be bother checking what the facts are . On box seat they let the rant continue without asking a simple question- ... how do we stop horse number leakage if we go back to the previous system which favoured age relief against the majority of the horse population which the new grade system caters for ? Also, the media accepted the comment - every trainer wants it scrapped - that was total lies !! I like facts not emotional rant which lazy journalists thrive on and seem you get sucked into . Fartoomuch and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted July 23, 2017 11 hours ago, LongOwner said: All media are lazy and harness journalists are no different - they are very fair weather supporters of particular in form stable(s) and accept MJ comments as gospel as they cannot be bother checking what the facts are . On box seat they let the rant continue without asking a simple question- ... how do we stop horse number leakage if we go back to the previous system which favoured age relief against the majority of the horse population which the new grade system caters for ? Also, the media accepted the comment - every trainer wants it scrapped - that was total lies !! I like facts not emotional rant which lazy journalists thrive on and seem you get sucked into . Very good and straight to the point.LO. Interesting that All Stars are not involved in any of this nonsense. Perhaps there is a message there for a few trainers. john legend 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
One more lap 91 Report post Posted August 13, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 6:25 PM, what a post said: Looks like they have made some good changes to current handicapping system, Nothing major but does seem a bit fairer. OWNERS REVOLT, it costs a lot of money to train a horse per month and maybe only have two or maybe three starts in gut busting 2600 at Addington or elswhere, , maybe we should look at the USA or Aussie and have shorter races with smaller fields, then the horse can race more often and give the long suffering owner a chance to at least break even, at the moment, you need to run two places a month and one must be second to keep your head above water, the owner is the backbone of this industry, give him at least a chance. Thejanitor and john legend 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBlackie 128 Report post Posted August 13, 2017 13 hours ago, One more lap said: OWNERS REVOLT, it costs a lot of money to train a horse per month and maybe only have two or maybe three starts in gut busting 2600 at Addington or elswhere, , maybe we should look at the USA or Aussie and have shorter races with smaller fields, then the horse can race more often and give the long suffering owner a chance to at least break even, at the moment, you need to run two places a month and one must be second to keep your head above water, the owner is the backbone of this industry, give him at least a chance. Agree with the above, in today's modern quick world, harness racing needs to move with the times. Hardest race to win in the world is a mobile 2600m at Addington. I know owners have a choice to start or not but there usually is just the one choice. The horse would last a lot longer if this was the case, and race more competively. In saying that, there will always be a place for the traditional standing start two miles, but it's about appealing to the new world order. Why does a meeting have to last 5-6 hours when it could be over in 3, young people, if that who we are trying to attract, don't have that attention span. Shorter run races, all mobiles, horse already to go on the track for the next race, all that down time between races to fit schedules. The tail(NZRB) has been wagging the dog(Racing) for too long and it should be the other way, where they fit into racing schedules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikenz 1,071 Report post Posted January 12, 2021 On 5/28/2017 at 5:16 PM, hsvman said: I'm certain the system will work and help keep horses here and racing bigger fields. Time and a few tweaks will solve everything I'm sure Well after nearly four years after someone posted this comment and judging by the size of most of the harness fields seems to be carrying on as usual Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,115 Report post Posted January 13, 2021 20 hours ago, mikenz said: Well after nearly four years after someone posted this comment and judging by the size of most of the harness fields seems to be carrying on as usual You must have a lot of spare time but good on you for finding it. I wonder if Auckland Fields would make the cut napier 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varro 244 Report post Posted January 14, 2021 On 1/14/2021 at 7:44 AM, JJ Flash said: You must have a lot of spare time but good on you for finding it. I wonder if Auckland Fields would make the cut one could argue you do as well, you seem to pop up all over the place, across various sites, posting and replying with rubbish, one could argue that you are also a serial poster, so then in saying that you must too have a lot of spare time. auckland is on a hiding regardless of changes. with a limited pool of trainers, and little interest in harness in auckland, as time goes on its going to become an ever increasing challenge to maintain decent fields, despite auckland offering good stakes. maybe this is were innovation comes to the fold. new incentives e.g. whats hrnz doing to attract more trainers to auckland. could an idea like, HRNZ subsiding costs to a new start up for the first year in auckland help pave the way forward for more people to take up training in auckland? for auckland i dont think numbers will be affected by stakes, or new internal rule changes, history has shown us this thus far. id say the north island in articular needs some new ideas, outside the box thinking to make it a force again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...