Danny Boy 17 Report post Posted June 4, 2017 11 hours ago, hsvman said: I see kim butt got done twice in same meeting At least Kim was doing her utmost to get a result for owners and punters. Contrast Kims drives with the drive on Audi Hare in race 9 at Forbury- There would seem to be reasons for the drive on this horse as the reintroduction of the whip was a gear change on this horse for this race and it did a truck load of work early. It did still merit a query from the stipes in charge which was not forthcoming. If you had backed Audi Hare , how would you feel watching the last 200 m of this race? This is the conundrum – we have the racing purist who loves horses and enjoys the racing for what it is and you have the punter who like to or not contributes in no small way to the finances of the racing industry and expects maximum effort from horse and driver to achieve a winning result. I would say most punters who backed Audi Hare would be livid and say the race and harness racing is rigged. This was mentioned as a common perception by people in another thread here recently and one I hear all the time . Serious punters will desert horse racing in droves if you take the whip away and it looks like drivers are not trying in the last 200 m of a race by playing statues. If you take the whip away from racing, you had better find another way to fund it. hsvman 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted June 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Danny Boy said: I would say most punters who backed Audi Hare would be livid and say the race and harness racing is rigged. This was mentioned as a common perception by people in another thread here recently and one I hear all the time . Serious punters will desert horse racing in droves if you take the whip away and it looks like drivers are not trying in the last 200 m of a race by playing statues. If you take the whip away from racing, you had better find another way to fund it. If in fact the games does lose any punters when the whips are finally banned - whuch is yet to be seen - it'll only be the few that get some perverse joy out of seeing a horse flogged. Take a look at some previous videos of Audi Hare's races. It's hardly ever touched with the whip, as it does improve it. chelseacol and Thejanitor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted June 4, 2017 1 hour ago, JackSprat said: It's hardly ever touched with the whip, as the whip does NOT improve it. Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejanitor 1,219 Report post Posted June 5, 2017 16 hours ago, hsvman said: I see kim butt got done twice in same meeting Not surprising. K. A. Butt uses the whip excessively in my opinion. I don't know whether it is because she is petite but she has a very exaggerated whip action and doesn't appear to use the reins much to coax a horse home. She walloped Zakspatrol 16 times in the straight at Forbury so deserves to be fined and suspended. Fartoomuch, badger and chelseacol 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted June 11, 2017 And still the fines & disqualifications are forthcoming. Does this really mean many of the drivers are "idiots" or does this rule need re-addressing, albeit if only the number of permitted strikes, hitting horse or gear only, pauses, etc.etc. It wont be long before the horsemens (or is it horsepersons) body look for a substantial increase in driving fee to cover loss of income? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelseacol 2,488 Report post Posted June 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, eljay said: And still the fines & disqualifications are forthcoming. Does this really mean many of the drivers are "idiots" or does this rule need re-addressing, albeit if only the number of permitted strikes, hitting horse or gear only, pauses, etc.etc. It wont be long before the horsemens (or is it horsepersons) body look for a substantial increase in driving fee to cover loss of income? Mmm - dont think I will be paying a driver more when they can't count Taku Umanga and Fartoomuch 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 11, 2017 1 hour ago, eljay said: And still the fines & disqualifications are forthcoming. Does this really mean many of the drivers are "idiots" or does this rule need re-addressing, albeit if only the number of permitted strikes, hitting horse or gear only, pauses, etc.etc. It wont be long before the horsemens (or is it horsepersons) body look for a substantial increase in driving fee to cover loss of income? Yes Eljay. I can see it now, driver B to the inquiry room at Alexander Park. Opening submission , Driver b could you please count from 1-15. Ok so you can do it in here so why not do it out there, guilty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestar 80 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 I just read the Ricky May JCA report where he was suspended for hitting a horse 13 times over the last 400 metres. It states he initially hit the horse once then intermittently with pauses hit it another 12 times.....really!!! you get suspended for this. I cant wait for the the stipes to bring someone up on failing to drive the horse out because the driver isn't sure he has hit it 10 or 11 times in the run home. Where has common sense gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 42 minutes ago, lonestar said: I just read the Ricky May JCA report where he was suspended for hitting a horse 13 times over the last 400 metres. It states he initially hit the horse once then intermittently with pauses hit it another 12 times.....really!!! you get suspended for this. I cant wait for the the stipes to bring someone up on failing to drive the horse out because the driver isn't sure he has hit it 10 or 11 times in the run home. Where has common sense gone Common sense is right in front of you Lonestar. The rules are there for all to see, if you break them you get suspended. Thejanitor and hsvman 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestar 80 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 sigh...they might be there for all to see doesn't make them right. As I said cant wait for one of these drivers to stop hitting the horse short of the line and it gets run down and the driver pulled up for failing to drive it out. Conondrum then for the JCA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 15 hours ago, lonestar said: sigh...they might be there for all to see doesn't make them right. As I said cant wait for one of these drivers to stop hitting the horse short of the line and it gets run down and the driver pulled up for failing to drive it out. Conondrum then for the JCA Why is it a conundrum.The rule says the maximum number of times a driver may use the whip over a certain distance, are you sure your not Brodie in diguise Thejanitor 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestar 80 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 no not Brodie...hypothetically (because I don't think it has happened yet) which rule trumps the other. Failing to drive your horse out and gain best placing or the excessive whip rule! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil 333 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 18 hours ago, lonestar said: sigh...they might be there for all to see doesn't make them right. As I said cant wait for one of these drivers to stop hitting the horse short of the line and it gets run down and the driver pulled up for failing to drive it out. Conondrum then for the JCA That would indeed be an interesting situation. But surely any driver who can count well enough to know he has to stop hitting the horse would also be able to judge things well enough to not get himself into that position in the first place. badger, Thejanitor and Fartoomuch 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 As I have said, to me it is not the rule it is the number of permissible strikes and whether striking sulky, dustsheet, or anything other than the horse itself should be taken into the equation, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 56 minutes ago, lonestar said: no not Brodie...hypothetically (because I don't think it has happened yet) which rule trumps the other. Failing to drive your horse out and gain best placing or the excessive whip rule! I would suggest to you that intent would need to be established. If a driver hit his horse 11 times and that the last time was 20 metres off winning post then he wont to be charged with pulling it up. If on the other hand a driver only stikes 4-5 times and stops the same distance away he may well be in the cart. The other point which should be considered here is whether hitting a horse actually makes it run any faster??? A driver may well argue in his defense that hitting it was not achieving anything, some horses will react to the whip and others resent it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestar 80 Report post Posted June 12, 2017 you and I don't disagree about horses not responding to the whip or in fact resenting its use and so should the stipes, some of whom have been horsemen...whether the the JCA see that as a legitimate defence Im not so sure! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 18, 2017 Another driver who cant count or wont follow established rules.He joins R May and J Cox on the sidelines, the latter having been found guilty twice in 10 days. UNIQUE MARSHALL - raced wide early stages. Driver M Edmonds admitted a breach of Rule 869(2)(a) in that he used his whip in an excessive manner inside the final 400 metres. After hearing submissions on penalty, the JCA suspended Mr Edmond's licence from the conclusion of racing today up to and including 2 July 2017 (3 days). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Newmarket said: Another driver who cant count or wont follow established rules.He joins R May and J Cox on the sidelines, the latter having been found guilty twice in 10 days It's not easy to count how many times you hit a horse in the heat of the moment, lots of other things to think about. What annoys me is the inconsistacy, as I have counted many other times where the driver gets nothing.. Also you can tap a horse 11-15 times and get done, but wack it 9 -10 times and your ok. The rule is PC rubbish, the old rule was good enough. lonestar 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy 17 Report post Posted June 19, 2017 44 minutes ago, 45yearsofharness said: I Also you can tap a horse 11-15 times and get done, but wack it 9 -10 times and your ok. The rule is PC rubbish, the old rule was good enough. I completely agree. There is one driver I can think of who if he wacked a horse 9-10 times , I would consider that animal cruelty. He knows that and does not do it, but under this stupid new rule which takes no account of the severity of the hits being inflicted ,he could abuse a horse and get away with it. The new rule was a HRNZ knee jerk reaction to Harness Racing Australia banning of the whip and as far as horses welfare is concerned, is pc nonsense. The old rule was fine and the ability to punish a driver for whip overuse was there if it occurred. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsvman 294 Report post Posted June 19, 2017 I see aussie have changed there no whip rule now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, 45yearsofharness said: It's not easy to count how many times you hit a horse in the heat of the moment, lots of other things to think about. What annoys me is the inconsistacy, as I have counted many other times where the driver gets nothing.. Also you can tap a horse 11-15 times and get done, but wack it 9 -10 times and your ok. The rule is PC rubbish, the old rule was good enough. Most drivers have no issue with counting to 10 or the rule as witnessed by how few have been charged. Animal cruelty, whether by perception or reality is a non starter these days and change was inevitable. Call it front footing a potential issue or whatever the rule is here to stay just as it is in gallops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45yearsofharness 173 Report post Posted June 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Most drivers have no issue with counting to 10 or the rule as witnessed by how few have been charged. Animal cruelty, whether by perception or reality is a non starter these days and change was inevitable. Call it front footing a potential issue or whatever the rule is here to stay just as it is in gallops. It will be here to stay for a while, then it will be banned, as you say animal cruelty it is, in the eyes of many. Animal welfare will win in the end. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartoomuch 1,376 Report post Posted June 19, 2017 23 minutes ago, 45yearsofharness said: It will be here to stay for a while, then it will be banned, as you say animal cruelty it is, in the eyes of many. Animal welfare will win in the end. Correct so only fools will fight it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNRYAN 62 Report post Posted July 2, 2017 On 4/06/2017 at 9:23 PM, Swede said: "Anyone that wants whips banned or likes horses not to have the whip used on a horse is not a serious punter." This is not about the serious punter and nor is it about being politically correct. This is about the horses and providing entertainment that does not involve them being whipped. This is the future. Obviously not a horseman. Kiwi professionals who have driven in the 2 countries in the world Norway and Germany who have no whip have said the horses don't try without it. The industry will shut down if they ever do it here. Punters will bet on other sports or overseas racing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNRYAN 62 Report post Posted July 2, 2017 On 19/06/2017 at 1:08 PM, Newmarket said: Correct so only fools will fight it. Animal welfare will not win. They can't shut down Rodeo so what chance horse racing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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