Ohokaman 5,825 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 Some sobering comments here...from those that should know. Are we likely to see this implemented here if Australia adopt the ban....??? https://www.racenet.com.au/news/129994/OPINION:-Steve-Moran-–-Whip-ban-inevitable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,947 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 I agree with the thinking of the journalist and suggest that we NZ, should take the lead and plan to have it banned by 31 July 2018. P.S. Thanks Ohokaman for creating a separate thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midget 4,489 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 Should've been done yesterday Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,076 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 12 minutes ago, Insider said: I agree with the thinking of the journalist and suggest that we NZ, should take the lead and plan to have it banned by 31 July 2018. P.S. Thanks Ohokaman for creating a separate thread. Why wait till 2018? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,947 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 To give the slow thinkers time to adjust. I would do it tomorrow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,076 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 I wouldn't get my hopes up Insider. NZ Racing's strategy is currently espoused by the mantra of FOLLOWING global best practice, not implementing it. And the only thing I can think of that it leads in internationally is receiving accolades as an exemplar of what not to do. I would have thought that if a whip ban was announced to take effect March 1, 2017, even the slow thinkers should manage to get their head around it by then. Insider 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevy86 2,704 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 Agree it is probably inevitable and I would not have a problem with a change, even allowing for carrying the whip still in case it is needed for control. Perception of harm to the horse is a powerful public driver for change. Not wishing to single out any particular jockey, but I am going to. Danielle Johnson. At the moment she is having great success, but a close look at her riding style at Ellerslie on New Years Day ( on winning rides She Brings Joy and Ruud Not To) shows a "very exuberant action" in the last 100metres that would have many observers thinking the horses had copped a flogging. She also won with a much more conservative , hands and heels ride, on Rube Bridges. Not having a go at Danielle as she is very successfully riding within the rules, but compare her whip action with OP, CWJ or NGH and then revisit the concept of "Perception", Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical 49 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 Do you think banning whips will give rise to other "gear". Maybe we will see more "blinkers" being used to keep minds on jobs, especially colts. As I have gotten older I do cringe at the use of the whip, whereas years ago I would have defended it! Interesting. Insider 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,825 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 I'm not a rider but seems to me this raises some interesting questions about a whole lot of things that others can comment on.. Jockeys handling of lazy, wayward or headstrong horses, and those that hang or run about...? How do they keep their horses mind "on the job" as Bossy puts it....? Punters having confidence their horse is being ridden out or given every opportunity to win.....whatever your view, the general perception is that you are in with a shout in a close finish if your horse is being "driven" to the line....? I suspect there are riders out there who will struggle to adapt to a new riding style sans whip, simply because they know no other way, historic....? The skill level of riders ( particularly younger ones ) will need to go up a few notches to compensate ( not a bad thing )...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical 49 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 Riders are going to have to be really fit to ride out. At least everyone will be in the same boat but I wouldn't want to back an inexperienced rider. Jockeys like CJ and JM make it look easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted January 2, 2017 New Zealand should lead the way. I have a device that costs less than $20 that will not only tell how many times a horse was being hit but the frequency of the hitting and the strength of the hit. This can be delivered in real time. By applying this technology, we can keep everyone happy. Any jockey hitting a horse too hard gets the book thrown at them. Turny and hedley 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,825 Report post Posted January 3, 2017 Here's the problem.... ARE HIS EARS GLUED ON? This overuse of the whip rule must be a joke to some jockeys. How else can you explain Regan Bayliss' performance at Flemington on New Year's Day? He was hauled before stewards and hit with a $300 fine for excessive whip use when striking Flying Light seven times prior to the 100m in the second event. It was only five races later when stewards pulled him in again and whacked him with a feather-duster $500 fine for striking Annus Mirabilis nine times prior to the 100m. Both horses got the money and Regan walked away, laughing all the way to the bank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,825 Report post Posted January 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Ohokaman said: I'm not a rider but seems to me this raises some interesting questions about a whole lot of things that others can comment on.. Jockeys handling of lazy, wayward or headstrong horses, and those that hang or run about...? How do they keep their horses mind "on the job" as Bossy puts it....? Punters having confidence their horse is being ridden out or given every opportunity to win.....whatever your view, the general perception is that you are in with a shout in a close finish if your horse is being "driven" to the line....? I suspect there are riders out there who will struggle to adapt to a new riding style sans whip, simply because they know no other way, historic....? The skill level of riders ( particularly younger ones ) will need to go up a few notches to compensate ( not a bad thing )...? Wasn't there a furore a week or so back over Douglas Whyte getting beaten in a big race in Perth after he stopped riding his mount..?? The RIU will have their work cut out keeping everyone happy. Don't see it working frankly...not sure punters will either. napier 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Roustoby 292 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 This guy wrote a similar article about Jumps racing a while back and how we had to ban it to move forward. I respect his opinion but don't agree with it. The whole idea of "Public Perception" is easily fixed by education. Teach the public that the sticks are padded foam and don't hurt the horses. Do you really think banning the whip is going to attract more people to racing or more punting dollars? Ban the whip and they will go after 2yo racing next. Will breakers be required to break in horses without gear and literally be horse whisperers? Spurs,tongue ties,nose bands,blindfolds where do they stand? Animal Rights activists are a cancer to racing and won't stop until there is not racing. I have heard that the whip rules will be relaxed at the next Racing Australia meeting and not banned. There are some horses who need a wake up call with the stick to get going. Their careers will be over. Educate the public,ban jockeys who overuse the whip and flog horses especially horses who aren't in contention. But keep the whip,as Bossy says they need a few taps to keep their mind on the job. Maybe the over sensitive people we are breeding today are offended by the word "whip" and we need to change its name to make them feel better? persuader or "wand" with Harry Potter being so popular might make them feel better about it? Seriously though Education is the key if "public perception" is the issue here. Just my opinion. barryb, lecithin, Southland and 4 others 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,076 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Michael Roustoby said: There are some horses who need a wake up call with the stick to get going. Their careers will be over. Interesting theory. Could that be because the pain of the whip exceeds whatever other pain they would be experiencing by "getting going"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaman 1,352 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 The end goal of animal rights activists is a total ban. You give an inch, you give a yard. Ban whips, and it will not stop there. At some time you have to make a stand. My advise is to tell them to shove it. Totally ignor them, they do not exist. Only change for reasons important for the betterment and growth of the industry. Stop being cowards, take back control. Remember, animal right activists are waging total war with you, and all forms of using animals for human entertainment is a no no in their agenda. Buckling over on a whip ban, or even cutting down on its use will only encourage them to aim for your total destruction. shaneMcAlister, elbow, barryb and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneMcAlister 1,425 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 This is a very interesting topic. I too believe animal activists want a total ban on horse racing. So to give up the whip for them is the wrong reason to give it up. To give it up because the industry wants too that is different and I would still be as keen as ever on the game. I was in the UK and Ireland when they wanted to change the name from National Hunt racing to Jump racing. I could not see the point of it till hunting was banned, then I saw the good foresight someone had to try and distance the jump racing from hunting (when they are very closely related). I personally think to see horse racing with the whip being moved from one hand to another to keep a horse going straight (as opposed to abusing a horse that is giving its all) is one of the great sights in horse racing. Someone also mentioned the banning of 2yo racing. That is a different topic again, and personally I think it has merit. Hong Kong seems to have little if any 2yo racing and their racing is stronger for it. A horse that does not race as a 2yo seems to hang around a lot longer and therefore grows a larger following and generates more betting dollars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midget 4,489 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 The obvious solution is that the jockey can carry the whip but can't rotate it into the vertical position, in other words it extends out the bottom of his/her hand not the top ( where they can generate more power and hit the animal a lot harder ). As many horses hate the stick as respond positively to it so the argument about it being necessary is marginal, however the point about wayward horses needing a slap down the neck is fair. Who knows, we might improve the breed if all the good races are won by good horses who haven't been thrashed to do something they didn't want to do...imagine that....genuine sound horses winning G1 races and going to stud to breed genuine sound horses who in turn wanted to be racehorses.... The world is a changing place though, as are the perceptions of society with regard to farming methods etc...and to how we treat our domestic animals. Get with the programme guys, the industry has been left behind in so many other ways so let's try to be progressive and do the right thing in this instance. Animal abuse in any form is despicable, in fact it's not much different to child abuse and we should do everything we can to reduce it to acceptable levels. shaneMcAlister, richie, chevy86 and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,855 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 I have seen horses that were traveling ok stop totally when hit with the whip near the finish. A sort of "what the f--k do you think you are doing" response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastern whipbird 82 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 Perhaps a start a la Hong Kong system. Trials there do not allow for use of the whip. Jockeys as a result get more practice riding hands and heels. shaneMcAlister 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted January 4, 2017 Ohakason, Douglas Whyte's problem in Perth wasn't because he stopped using his whip. He thought he had the race won but was looking behind him at the challenging horse, rather than at where the winning post was. He stopped riding. A lot of jocks are whip crazy. One who isn't is K McEvoy. Not quite a Peter Cook but still a quiet rider. Not sure what the answer to it is but the fines are ridiculous if you ask me. One day, a jockey narrowly beaten in a race like the Slipper or Melb Cup, is going to protest against the winner claiming unfair advantage to due excessive whip use and breaking the whip use rules. The same as a horse losing a race due to interference giving an unfair advantage. It could even involve a court challenge. There's already been a change to places in a Qld race over excessive whip use. They either need to disqualify the guilty parties or scrub the rules altogether. It will happen in a big one sooner than you think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Roustoby 292 Report post Posted January 6, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 7:51 PM, Leggy said: Interesting theory. Could that be because the pain of the whip exceeds whatever other pain they would be experiencing by "getting going"? More to do with the horses natural instinct to stay with the herd. Plus some,like alot of people, are lazy and only do as much as they are asked. Racing is their job and they are paid with feed,shelter etc. On 1/5/2017 at 8:46 AM, Midget said: The obvious solution is that the jockey can carry the whip but can't rotate it into the vertical position, in other words it extends out the bottom of his/her hand not the top ( where they can generate more power and hit the animal a lot harder ). Good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richie 1,027 Report post Posted January 6, 2017 As a lover of horses i dont like to see horses getting whipped and i also believe that if a horse cant win a race under its own steam it doesnt deserve to win it.My personal opinion is that a horse with a will to win will always give 100% and the whip doesnt make any difference,and if a horse doesnt give 100% then it doesnt want to be there and whipping it generally doesnt make any difference.But others may have differing opinions as i have never ridden or driven under race conditions. However i do think the Jockey makes a big difference,the feel of the bit in the mouth is probably the most important thing to get a horse to do its best.The feel the jockey has on the horse and the soft hands and compassion on the mouth .My upbringing was in Harness racing and mouthing was a big part of breaking in.While some of our better horses were tenacious and arseholes to do anything with we always found that they responded best to compassion when they had a bit in their mouth. Obviously there are a lot of things that go into making a racehorse but i do believe that most horses try their best and those that dont probably dont want to be their and wont try under any circumstances. bus stop 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevy86 2,704 Report post Posted January 7, 2017 Race 3 Trentham--Stephenstihls, Parkes, 23 decent full arm whacks in the last 300., Mcphoebe, du Plessis, 4 or 5 lesser whacks then hands and heels only last 100 metres. Admittedly missed by a head but I know which jockey I would prefer to have on my horse! As I have said before, the exaggerated flogging action not a good look and there will be repercussions for the industry and I have sympathy for the move to "rein in the unnecessary flogging". Insider 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,825 Report post Posted January 9, 2017 The French get involved... https://www.racenet.com.au/news/130138/New-whip-rules-in-France Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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