RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Tropical

Trainers and Tracks

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What is it with trainers going on about the state of our tracks here?  In the first race today Kelso and Greene whinged about the track beforehand and after Stolen Dance won.  Greene harped on about why SD didn't come up in the spring and blamed the tracks.  SD hasn't come up now either.  She barely beat a 9yr old.  It is a convenient excuse every time, and as we are moving into summer i expect the whinging will go on because of the 'hardness' of the tracks.  Track managers will never win this one.  Its meant to be hard because we are in summertime.  Never have i heard so many people blame so many externals so often and readily.  They are supposed to be athletes and as athletes will come home a little worse for wear, that is to be expected, and if they don't they obviously haven't tried to hard.  Like some horses some trainers should have been sacked years ago!    

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49 minutes ago, Tropical said:

What is it with trainers going on about the state of our tracks here?  In the first race today Kelso and Greene whinged about the track beforehand and after Stolen Dance won.  Greene harped on about why SD didn't come up in the spring and blamed the tracks.  SD hasn't come up now either.  She barely beat a 9yr old.  It is a convenient excuse every time, and as we are moving into summer i expect the whinging will go on because of the 'hardness' of the tracks.  Track managers will never win this one.  Its meant to be hard because we are in summertime.  Never have i heard so many people blame so many externals so often and readily.  They are supposed to be athletes and as athletes will come home a little worse for wear, that is to be expected, and if they don't they obviously haven't tried to hard.  Like some horses some trainers should have been sacked years ago!    

You are obviously not interested in horse welfare you clown! I suspect many of the "Good 3" tracks are actually Good 2 or even Good 1 after a day baking in the sun but they daren't list them as that or else there would be mass scratchings. I would take Ken Kelso's wisdom over yours any day. ( The grace with which he took the Magic Briar relegation absurdity stamped him as someone who is worthy of tendering good advice).Stress on horses' legs needs to be mitigated by some yield in the racing surface, just as athletics tracks have rubberised, all-weather surfaces.

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So you agree with midget as well then.  Well if you base your whole horse education on what Kelso says and does good for you.  Regarding horse welfare well we need not go there.  I could tell you stories that would make your eyeballs bulge and it is current. Nothing has changed in the racing industry.  Horses go round and supposedly we are breeding better sorts.  If that is the case why aren't we breeding to cope with these so called 'harder' tracks.  Surely we saw this coming.  I have racehorses but never would i give them to a trainer who complained about stuff out of their control.  This i learned from one of the best international trainers ever.  You talk about athletes....there are way more than those that run around rubberised all weather tracks.... (I think Kelso is a really good trainer, just don't blame this that and the other,work with what you have)

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Maybe more effort in the fact at hand than trolling the net for a t shirt thingy would suggest to me that you do not have that much involvement on the ground floor midget. Go find another t-shirt or belt out another well worn cliche'.  I can hardly wait. :) 

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1 hour ago, Tropical said:

So you agree with midget as well then.  Well if you base your whole horse education on what Kelso says and does good for you.  Regarding horse welfare well we need not go there.  I could tell you stories that would make your eyeballs bulge and it is current. Nothing has changed in the racing industry.  Horses go round and supposedly we are breeding better sorts.  If that is the case why aren't we breeding to cope with these so called 'harder' tracks.  Surely we saw this coming.  I have racehorses but never would i give them to a trainer who complained about stuff out of their control.  This i learned from one of the best international trainers ever.  You talk about athletes....there are way more than those that run around rubberised all weather tracks.... (I think Kelso is a really good trainer, just don't blame this that and the other,work with what you have)

So you think it is fine for 500KG thoroughbreds to run around on rock hard tracks and expect nothing catastrophic to happen...is that what you are saying in a nutshell???

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Well lets turn the irrigation on, oh no cant do that, the track will be to wet, never keep everyone happy, opens a can of worms and how many times have we seen that, who would want to be a track manager.

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Yes i do actually think it is fine for horses (despite size) to run around on hard tracks.  They do it in Australia and their horses are on average larger than ours.  As Shad has pointed out 'who would want to be a track manager'.  They couldn't get it right back in the '70's and they still supposedly cant get it right now.  Its an easy argument for a trainer, gets them off the hook every time unless its the 'jockey'.  There were two horses today finished out the back end.  Both just couldn't cop it.  These poor animals had trainers who had said previously that their horses 'would be better on top the ground, they are not just wet trackers'.  Clearly they had misjudged their animals.  So effectively those trainers could spout the 'hard track' mantra instead of 'poor judgement' bordering on 'I'll show them' got it all wrong trainer.  So when you talk about Horse Welfare look a little closer to home.

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12 hours ago, Tropical said:

Yes i do actually think it is fine for horses (despite size) to run around on hard tracks.  They do it in Australia and their horses are on average larger than ours.  As Shad has pointed out 'who would want to be a track manager'.  They couldn't get it right back in the '70's and they still supposedly cant get it right now.  Its an easy argument for a trainer, gets them off the hook every time unless its the 'jockey'.  There were two horses today finished out the back end.  Both just couldn't cop it.  These poor animals had trainers who had said previously that their horses 'would be better on top the ground, they are not just wet trackers'.  Clearly they had misjudged their animals.  So effectively those trainers could spout the 'hard track' mantra instead of 'poor judgement' bordering on 'I'll show them' got it all wrong trainer.  So when you talk about Horse Welfare look a little closer to home.

Then you really don't have a clue... you are quick to blame trainers who are looking to look after their animals... but you think its OK for a horse to run around and if it pulls up lame or worse then its no big deal.. you have a very one eyed view ... you don't seem to like trainers is that right???

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"If it pulls up lame or worse".  Seriously every time a racehorse goes out to compete or even train this could happen.  The amount of horses that have been euthanized on training tracks would eclipse those on race day, so should we just stop altogether. No i don't mind some trainers at all, i just will not hang my hat on everything they say.  Some are way better than others.  Its a bit like a mechanic or any other profession.  Just because they say it, doesn't mean its 100% right.  

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Tropical ....weird statement this....

"They do it in Australia and their horses are on average larger than ours."

What data do you base this on? I'm afraid that the lolly juice you have been drinking may have been spiked.

After all of this discussion, it would seem that statistically we have not really reduced the mortality rate materially, whether in training or racing, or changing track conditions. It would seem that our horses race less often and for the lessor number of career races than ever before. Australasia used to be a bench mark for a good fast strong resilient stallion making type but it would seem that this is no longer. Nothing wrong with racing a horse on a firm track as long as it is conditioned correctly. Any idiot knows that you can't take a horse that is trained on a soft track incessantly and then run it on a hard track without something going on.

Maybe it's just a simple matter of cutting too many corners for too long. We have less good natural stockmen (and therefore horsemen), we have inferior management practise in respect of our racing surfaces and a bunch of idiots setting the event up (that being the pattern). The concept of racing surfaces is common sense. Get the right soil median, use the right grasses (deep rooting with a dense deep core), don't water at the wrong frequency at the wrong time, cut the bloody stuff at the right time, use the right fert program and report those conditions to everyone accurately.

Open sourcing the track management process would allow that any deficiencies are publically identified and resolved. What is there to lose? Reputations? Honesty?

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Australians believe that racehorses race better on firm dry tracks.  I would think their firm dry would be way more than ours.  Australia and NZ do have larger racehorses on average than the rest of the world but i believe this is changing.  Having ridden both Australian and NZ stock i found the Australian stock larger, more muscled animals than here, especially their youngsters.  Resilience is pretty much dead in the water regarding stallions in Oz.  They are off to stud within a minute of winning a Grp 1 race, and who can blame them, money to be had.  Your comment 'any idiot knows' obviously we have a few of those here because so often you hear trainers say 'its not just a wet tracker', thus lacking 'good natural stockmenship',  i totally agree with you.

I think your argument is to simplistic and idealistic regarding racing surfaces.  Our weather is so interchangeable and our soil types are so different geographically.  To say don't water at the wrong frequency at the wrong time, surely those that have weren't out to sabotage the meetings?  I am all for trying to get things right for the good of the racing industry. I am all for Out Sourcing, as you say we have nothing to lose.  I just don't know that NZ racing can afford the right people.  Seems to me the right people don't want a bar of the Industry unfortunately.   The lolly juice i am on is 'been there, done it for all of my life'.  I have found statistics to be very misleading, so i do not read too much into them.   

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Tropical you're making it up.

Australian trainers ( legends current and past ) like Freedy and Bart for example, demanded tracks with give in them for horse safety and welfare.

Your argument is spurious anyway but don't weaken it further but inventing "facts" because you make yourself look stupid.

 

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Bart demanded nothing but a free buffet and a car to get as close to the 'tower' as possible.  He was indeed a tremendous trainer of his day, but we barely saw him.  In the morning maybe, but Anthony ran the place so Bart could office it most of the time, and then he would sail off in his big silver Mercedes.  He was a nice man nevertheless.  

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12 minutes ago, Tropical said:

You have read this whole article haven't you midget?  

Waller, O'Shea, Williams, Hayes....did I miss anyone important ?

Didn't see you quoted of course but I'm sure you're there somewhere :) 

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Topical....

you talk some crap. I have a whole bunch of weight statistics and apart from early two year old Racing, there is no statistical difference in the Racing weight of horses older than two when comparing Aust to other Racing nations. I could be said that prior to 1988, the handicap horses on average were 4.5 kgs heavier but considering the overall weight of a horse is approximately 450kg, this is not statistically important.

Also, your understanding of agronomy and soils, in relation to plant/ grass and pasture management is obviously short on quite a few notes. Get knowledged up before you make comments on topics you obviously don't really understand, yet profess to know. Makes you look like a dick

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