Dopey 214 Report post Posted October 25, 2016 Oxymoron is a figure of speech in which two opposite ideas are joined to create an effect Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeder 607 Report post Posted October 25, 2016 "but unfortunately none of them are materially challenging historical race times. " Berri , that is a key point and I can remember Jack Glengarry writing about it ( probably in his regular Friday Flash column) 30 years ago. At the time Jack was questioning training methods which he thought had not changed for years. Have they changed materially since --I don't know, but I'd suggest it is a combination of factors , not just one that has lead to very little improvements in times. I agree with your comment about breeding for the sales but unfortunately there are very few people or companies that have luxury of doing otherwise. It would be great to see some of these big studs reserve say 20% of their mares to breed for what they consider breed improvement, whatever their ideas on this are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 I could also point out a whole bunch of other nicks that are more successful percentage wise. These are dam sires mated with Street Cry.How about these: Pulpit 3-3 100% 4-55 7% 13,585 33,226 Red Ransom 3-3 100% 4-19 21% 32,792 77,353 Pivotal 3-3 100% 6-15 40% 57,842 105,796 Mark Of Esteem 3-3 100% 14-92 15% 49,970 93,585 Diktat 2-4 50% 5-37 14% 16,206 40,080 Rock Of Gibraltar 2-3 67% 2-16 13% 5,655 13,267 Saint Ballado 2-3 67% 5-34 15% 12,776 21,204 Darshaan 2-3 67% 9-90 10% 88,824 135,416 Caerleon 2-3 67% 4-22 18% 12,219 15,683 Barathea 2-3 67% 4-29 14% 37,850 94,857 Malibu Moon 2-2 100% 4-29 14% 12,453 17,301 Dixie Union 2-2 100% 2-15 13% 5,974 9,210 King Of Kings 2-2 100% 5-16 31% 30,046 36,589 Dynaformer 2-2 100% 3-15 20% 16,558 18,963 Lyphard 2-2 100% 2-13 15% 7,323 11,331 Inchinor 2-2 100% 4-32 13% 42,555 142,643 Nashwan 2-2 100% 7-61 11% 25,556 40,388 Half A Year 2-2 100% 2-17 12% 10,611 28,766 Unfuwain 2-2 100% 3-17 18% 16,709 35,154 The first column is the number of times those sires have been the dam sire when covered by Street Cry. The next is the number of wins to starts that those progeny have had. Just depends how you look at the puzzle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,076 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 7 hours ago, Swynford said: This is the kind of useless information that snake oil salesmen produce to try and convince the naive, n0? I'm pretty sure Boris would see past it even without being elixered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted November 2, 2016 I always like to look at a larger sample to rule out what could be luck or a coincidence. Blood depends on where it is located in a pedigree ( how far back). I also believe the direct female tail line might have more importance than just its percentage. And if pedigree is 40% of the equation, then we do not discuss the other 60% enough on this site.Training, environment, diet, temperament, track conditions. A name in a pedigree can make a difference but once we are less than 0.78% ( less than three quarters of a percent and past 7 generations) we are getting pretty diluted. Turning it into a joke, if CO 2 is 380 parts per million and it is meant to be making a difference then why do people not think it could be something else? Getting off the subject..... percentages below- 1st generation- 50%, 2nd generation - 25%, 3rd generation - 12.5%, 4th generation - 6.25%, 5th generation - 3.125%, 6th generation - 1.56%, 7th generation - .78%, 8th generation - .39%, 9th generation - .195%, 10th generation - .01% Dopey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted November 28, 2016 Interesting pedigree, very close up duplications or line breeding patterns on both sides of Savabeels pedigree. The sort of thing that I would be doing to get my 100 K's worth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted November 29, 2016 The best of the best 54 wins from 54 races Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted November 29, 2016 Why can't I get copied images to display when they appear when I write the post? My previous post had a pedigree of Kincsem attached to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,993 Report post Posted November 29, 2016 Berri Kincsem won 54/54. Eclipsed by Camarerol who won 55/55 albeit in Puerto Rico. Federico Tesio will always be the all time benchmark. He bred Ribot 16/16 and Nearco 14/14. No prizes for guessing who rode Nearco! Breeder 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,341 Report post Posted December 1, 2016 On 11/30/2016 at 9:59 AM, gubellini said: Berri Kincsem won 54/54. Eclipsed by Camarerol who won 55/55 albeit in Puerto Rico. Federico Tesio will always be the all time benchmark. He bred Ribot 16/16 and Nearco 14/14. No prizes for guessing who rode Nearco! Camarero (Peurto Rico) lost his first start and then won 56 races straight. He ended up 73 wins from 77 starts. He holds the record for the most wins in a season Northern Hemisphere 1 Jan - 31 Dec with 29 wins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,993 Report post Posted December 1, 2016 Ted many thanks for the correction! I was quoting from the Miller's Guide. Even they get things wrong sometimes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Kirrama 1,513 Report post Posted December 8, 2016 On 10/24/2016 at 8:34 PM, Berri said: Swynford....you've got to be kidding!!! There are a few people who are reading this post who will be having a little chuckle to themselves at your latest comment. I've asked you this once before but I don't believe I actually got an answer....the question is "what group one winner have you bred yourself and what group one winner have you advised to be mated that I can independently qualify?" This can be the only real test of your theories. If what you are saying is correct then one in seven foals that you make matings for must be a group one winner. You made the above statement so I must have the opportunity to inquire. I'm not on a witch hunt. I just don't get your breeding theory, have asked you for specific explanations in an attempt to understand it, and you respond by offering your recent comment. Not only have I been looking at pedigrees most of my life, I have spent considerable time with John Aiscan (Tesco's protege), the pedigree managers for Bunker Hunt, the Aga Khan, Judmont and the Phipps' to name a few. Although not a breeder, I have my fair say with a number of breeders who seem to be regularly breeding group one winners. I've also spent considerable talking time with Emmiline Hill of the Genome project in Ireland in an effort to understand the potential cross over between pedigree and genetic predispositions. I've also been part of a research project that originated at Curtin, progressed to Davis and has its final resting place in little old NZ. This project is mapping physiological ability with genetics through the use of sensors which look for frequency traits that are present in genetic lineage. Not only have I physiologically mapped sire-lines to three generations, but also female lines to three generations covered by those sires. We shall one day find out if there is any statistical relevance present but at the moment it looks interesting. So cut the crap and don't be a tosser. If you can't receive a genuine inquiry and offer a robust explanation as a response, then work on your explanation because it currently doesn't make sense. Berrie: you failed to mention and acknowledge Paul Moroney,Jim Campin and Patrick Hogan in your John Aiscon list of credits for pedigree research that you may have done. Any reason ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 Smart winner Sandown today Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 easy winner Wanganui this week Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 1,495 Report post Posted February 26, 2017 Given Zabeels pedigree, how then do we figure Patrick Hogans sire Tavistock. Northern Dancer on the male line but nothing of note on the dam line,or could Patrick see something with crossing Tavistock --Zabeel/Zavabeel blood that no one else could. ? . Werther is an example of this and he just won the Hong Kong Cup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... 226 Report post Posted February 26, 2017 Sir Patrick has given a lot of credit to the duplication of Val De Loir that occurs when crossing Tavistock with Zabeel mares, in fact he places a lot of emphasis on Val De Loir in general Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2Admin2 Report post Posted February 26, 2017 15 minutes ago, globederby12 said: Given Zabeels pedigree, how then do we figure Patrick Hogans sire Tavistock. Northern Dancer on the male line but nothing of note on the dam line,or could Patrick see something with crossing Tavistock --Zabeel/Zavabeel blood that no one else could. ? . Werther is an example of this and he just won the Hong Kong Cup. Tavistock is a Montjeu with a very good turn of foot. Ran 1.21 and had a big finish. My understanding is that those Montjeu's who could sprint have gone on to make decent sires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 1,495 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 2 hours ago, 2Admin2 said: Tavistock is a Montjeu with a very good turn of foot. Ran 1.21 and had a big finish. My understanding is that those Montjeu's who could sprint have gone on to make decent sires. In fact he is the fastest Montjeu over 1400 in the world ,I am pretty sure. Not bad for a staying breed. Andy and the team would be over the moon with Werthers result,and probably scratching there heads over how far he has come. Cant really see Gobstopper following in his brothers footsteps as yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varro 244 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 I would have to say that Werthers improvement has got to be the biggest seen In recent history? He was a good 3 year old, who was a couple of notches below the best we had, to doing what he does today. How do we compare the hong kong form? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2Admin2 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 33 minutes ago, Varro said: I would have to say that Werthers improvement has got to be the biggest seen In recent history? He was a good 3 year old, who was a couple of notches below the best we had, to doing what he does today. How do we compare the hong kong form? Hong Kong form is good form. I think the Tavistocks need time to show their best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeder 607 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 Wether had to be a very good horse to overcome nearly being knocked over coming into the straight in last nights race. On top of that I think that was only the second run in this preparation so kudos has to go to his trainer to get into that condition of fitness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2Admin2 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 15 hours ago, Breeder said: Wether had to be a very good horse to overcome nearly being knocked over coming into the straight in last nights race. On top of that I think that was only the second run in this preparation so kudos has to go to his trainer to get into that condition of fitness. Especially after Werther finished last season with an injury. Lame right hind leg. Right hind proximal suspensory injury Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... 226 Report post Posted February 27, 2017 17 hours ago, Varro said: I would have to say that Werthers improvement has got to be the biggest seen In recent history? He was a good 3 year old, who was a couple of notches below the best we had, to doing what he does today. To be fair he was obviously a late maturing 3yo and as soon as he hit 2000m his form was outstanding, 2nd in the Manawatu Classic (G3), won the Championship Stakes (G2), 2nd in the South Australian Derby (G1) (behind the superstar 3yo filly Delicacy), won the Eagle Farm Cup (G2) beating the older horses and then ran 2nd in the Queensland Derby (G1) when he could have been considered a good thing beaten. Very much is from a slow maturing family and has obviously thrived in Hong Kong and went to another level, he has developed into a top class older horse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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