RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
legs&lashes

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Matt,

14 hours ago, 1234 said:

Unfortunately Ray, whilst there are a few decent breeders in NZ there are many who aren't. We barely have enough trainers let alone breeders and unfortunately I don't see a lot of young people knocking on the door to get into our industry. In my view if we relied on NZ breeding alone we would end up with 10 race cards and probably 9 of them being sprints with in a couple of years. Week in week out we struggle to get c5 middle distance races all over NZ if you take away the imported dogs you would be lucky to see a c2 middle distance race. On another note if it is the welfare side of things you are worried about do you think 100% of dogs bred in NZ make it to the races? there is a large percentage of dogs that don't and many have short careers because they aren't competitive. Are the Majority of these dogs finding homes? Be realistic if you enjoy having a industry in NZ the imports have to stay. 

Matt

Matt, you state that if NZ breeders were all there were we would end up with 9 out of 10 races being sprint races. You are probably right but remember before the influx of imports 9 out of  ten races with NZ bred dogs were middle distance or staying races.

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23 hours ago, aquaman said:

This is my opinion for what its worth. Ray is a successful breeder. He has been breeding animals all his life. Cows, horses, and now dogs. Ray matches his maternal bloodlines to only the best. He only uses his better bitches. His maternal line traces back to Mega Maxi. She won a NZ Oaks whilst in my care on behalf of her owner and trainer Adriane Charters in track record time at Addington. She then added the Canterbury Futurity, and the Auckland Cup. Out of this line came Funny Girl, winner of over $70,000. She left Ninas Girl, conqueror of Swift Fantasy in the Silver Collar. Ninas Girl looks like being brood bitch of the yr judging by the lead she has at present. So in short what i'm trying to point out is, Ray is an astute breeder, and only goe's to the best Sires suited to his bloodlines.

In litters of dogs, not all get the same genes, some are strong, some are weak, some are stupid, some are smart, etc. In the scheme of things, nature usually dictates that only the strongest dog becomes the Alpha dog. He will be the one that doe's all the dealing, in this fashion the breed can go forward and not backwards. This Alpha dog will be the prepotent one [ability to throw on right genes] not all have this ability. Its rare to find two dogs in a litter that are equal in the ability to thow on their strength.

In the Greyhound world when selecting a Sire, best track performance is usually the guide as to the Alpha dog, the one with the ability to lift the breed. And usually theres only one in the litter. So when the question is put to Ray over DDO as against DV, Rays assessment as breeder is, DDO is the Alpha dog in the litter. But time will tell.

I did try going to the brother of a famous dog once, it was a dog by the name of Doughtful Bill, he stood in Queensland and was a brother to the mighty Brother Fox. I got good dogs at the time, but really he just faded away in the breed, and you would be lucky to find him in any pedigrees today, whereas Brother Fox would be everywhere. Brother Fox was the ALPHA dog, and thats why he was so great. Until we see pups on the ground we won't conclusively know who's going to be the best Sire between DDO, and DV, but because DDO has by far the superior record, then he will get the best bitches and in all probability be the better sire and the Alpha in the litter. I hope i havn't ruffled to many feathers, only my opinion. DV has been a great dog in NZ.

Very interesting and it makes great sense, I've never really looked at it that way before.

I think a lot of the problem is people are breeding with sprinters and just hoping to get a middle distance dog, but normally just end up sprinting in the end.

There are no rules though, as look at Swift Fantasy, she has ended up leaving a bunch of sprinters, I think out of the whole litter they have only won 1 middle distance race between them, and she would run all day!

Maybe  many NZ breeders just can't rear dogs properly and don't do the leg work early to give their dogs every chance to run a middle distance, I'm not sure.

Another thing to consider is some of these top stud dogs have come trainers with dubious reputations, and although the dog may have been a flying machine on the track, just how much of the ability was natural and how much was not?

I don't think people should be restricted as to who they have to breed with, as many of our top bitches have been very ordinary brood bitches, but breed with a sister or relation and you can get a good one.

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An excellent post from Aquaman with some very positive comments moving the debate along.      As for my knowledge - the more I think I know, the more I realise that I don't know very much at all.     Breeding is not an exact science but NZ has world leading animal geneticists and with their help we could easily become an exporter not an importer.      To help towards achieving this, I have decided to invest $10000.00 on a preliminary study to guide the industry towards this goal.     After all this is what NZ excels at, exporting.     Must go and pack my bags.   Ray

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Aquaman was looking through another ozzie forum last night and found a subject on brothers and thought of your post very interesting about the alpha dog.

I would like to know your thoughts on the Brett Lee x Elusive Rebel litter ( April 2002 ) which left to stud:

Crash - went to Ireland, Hallucinate and Where's Pedro, all did very well at stud.

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1 hour ago, lad27 said:

Aquaman was looking through another ozzie forum last night and found a subject on brothers and thought of your post very interesting about the alpha dog.

I would like to know your thoughts on the Brett Lee x Elusive Rebel litter ( April 2002 ) which left to stud:

Crash - went to Ireland, Hallucinate and Where's Pedro, all did very well at stud.

Arguably the best litter ever produced in the world ;)

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3 hours ago, lad27 said:

Aquaman was looking through another ozzie forum last night and found a subject on brothers and thought of your post very interesting about the alpha dog.

I would like to know your thoughts on the Brett Lee x Elusive Rebel litter ( April 2002 ) which left to stud:

Crash - went to Ireland, Hallucinate and Where's Pedro, all did very well at stud.

Lad27, like waves in the ocean, every now and then you get a monster, just as every now and then, along comes a litter of champions. But ultimately only one will be the alpha dog. He will be known as the dog you find in the pedigrees of the future. In this instance, i'm guessing Where's Pedro fills the bill.

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2 hours ago, aquaman said:

Lad27, like waves in the ocean, every now and then you get a monster, just as every now and then, along comes a litter of champions. But ultimately only one will be the alpha dog. He will be known as the dog you find in the pedigrees of the future. In this instance, i'm guessing Where's Pedro fills the bill.

:)Big call, Crash looks the goods at Stud

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48 minutes ago, Kinetic said:

I would say hallucinate was the standout for me. 

The test will be in the brood bitches of the future. Who will breeders go for when mating?. Will it be Where's Pedro bitches, or Hallucinate bitches. This will ultimately determine the future for the line. I lean towards Where's Pedro bitches.

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To get back on topic. Imports. What do we like about imports?. The first thing that springs to mind is the Genetic pool. Imports are necessary to grow and improve the breed. They give us a yard stick in which to measure NZ breeds, and where they sit on the international scale. They fill a gap where there are shortages of stock. They allow owners to get a ready made product. It allows overseas breeders and owners to send 2nd rate dogs that would otherwise have no future in Australia to race and earn good money here.

The last sentence is the one that i have a problem with. Why, because this is whats dragging NZ breeding down. NZ breeding will never fulfill its potential as long as the breeding stock is second rate. Not all NZ breeding falls into this category, but the majority does.

What do we like about NZ breeds?. First thing that springs to mind is growth. It employs NZers, ie, Vets, feed merchants, race clubs trialing, building for dog rearing, jobs for people looking after and educating pups. NZ owners that reinvest in industry. Growth of punting base by involving family, friends, and neighbors, in watching ,observing development of growing pups. Creating a passion for the sport by being involved from the beginning.

Imports are necessary for growing a world class NZ breed, one that in time could become an export. For this to happen we need to stop NZ being seen as a dumping ground for unwanted weak sprinters, and non chasers. The second thing that i would like to point out is, a lot of these dogs that are sent here are overseas owned. The prize money earned goes one way, and is not reinvested locally to create growth.

So in summation for a pathway to growth, we need imports, but the right ones. How do we achieve this?. We encourage the right ones, and we make it expensive to import the wrong ones. We set the bar at the desired height to achieve this.

NZ breeding is improving in leaps and bounds at the top level, but sadly this is confined to a handfull of astute breeders, but they are showing the way by only using the best stock. This is where our future growth will come from if we are to survive. Relying on imports, and overseas ownership will eventually sink us.

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36 minutes ago, aquaman said:

To get back on topic. Imports. What do we like about imports?. The first thing that springs to mind is the Genetic pool. Imports are necessary to grow and improve the breed. They give us a yard stick in which to measure NZ breeds, and where they sit on the international scale. They fill a gap where there are shortages of stock. They allow owners to get a ready made product. It allows overseas breeders and owners to send 2nd rate dogs that would otherwise have no future in Australia to race and earn good money here.

The last sentence is the one that i have a problem with. Why, because this is whats dragging NZ breeding down. NZ breeding will never fulfill its potential as long as the breeding stock is second rate. Not all NZ breeding falls into this category, but the majority does.

What do we like about NZ breeds?. First thing that springs to mind is growth. It employs NZers, ie, Vets, feed merchants, race clubs trialing, building for dog rearing, jobs for people looking after and educating pups. NZ owners that reinvest in industry. Growth of punting base by involving family, friends, and neighbors, in watching ,observing development of growing pups. Creating a passion for the sport by being involved from the beginning.

Imports are necessary for growing a world class NZ breed, one that in time could become an export. For this to happen we need to stop NZ being seen as a dumping ground for unwanted weak sprinters, and non chasers. The second thing that i would like to point out is, a lot of these dogs that are sent here are overseas owned. The prize money earned goes one way, and is not reinvested locally to create growth.

So in summation for a pathway to growth, we need imports, but the right ones. How do we achieve this?. We encourage the right ones, and we make it expensive to import the wrong ones. We set the bar at the desired height to achieve this.

NZ breeding is improving in leaps and bounds at the top level, but sadly this is confined to a handfull of astute breeders, but they are showing the way by only using the best stock. This is where our future growth will come from if we are to survive. Relying on imports, and overseas ownership will eventually sink us.

The way you carry on about these "unwanted weak sprinters and non chasers" makes it sound like the majority of NZ bred dogs don't fill that bill. Let's take a look at the current standings for NZ bred dogs this season. https://www.thedogs.co.nz/greyhounds/standings.aspx    ... If you go thru that list you will find the majority of them are dogs that can't run 400m, so to blame imports for this is rather short sighted and misleading. 

 

 

"The second thing that i would like to point out is, a lot of these dogs that are sent here are overseas owned. The prize money earned goes one way, and is not reinvested locally to create growth."

 

Half the prize money goes overseas, half goes to the trainer in the majority of cases. This is no different in the other 2 codes where a large number of horses / yearlings are brought from overseas owners and some race here, and a large number go to Asia/Aus etc etc. No one is stopping anyone from sending NZ bred dogs to Aus, the facts are tho the majority of our dogs aren't good enough and if you have a dog that is good enough, eg Thrilling Brat / Above All then you reap the benefits ten fold, and the prize money comes back to NZ. 

Finally aquaman, this is something that has been raised on here many a time, and I'm sure you already know but over half the turnover on NZ greyhound racing is from Australia. Why do you think this is? Is it because we have such a great product / quality of dog compared to Aus? No.

Is it because a large number of dogs are owner by Australians and they like having a bet on them? Do you think the Aussiee would continue betting on our racing if  the majority of imports weren't allowed in? Or is it something different do you think?Greyhound racing in NZ is frowned upon by the majority of kiwis and even a large number of punters that only bet on thoroughbreds or sports. 

You can't have it both ways, if you want to  prize money to diminish then banning the majority of imports would be a sure fire way of making that happen, that is a FACT.

 

One last question aquaman, would you have let Dyna Vikkers into the country to race? He was a non chaser, that hasn't looked like putting a foot wrong in NZ, and I don't know about yourself but I LOVE watching that dog race.

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This would have to be one of the most interesting and informative topics on here for many a long day.

The reference to an Alpha dog reminded of a standardbred part-owned by one of my friends. 

The horse was named Poor Man's Christian and was by Julius Caesar who was by In The Pocket out of Pleasant Franco.

Christian Cullen was by In The Pocket out of Pleasant Franco.

PMC had trouble going fast enough to keep warm.

Now that reminds me of an old saying which was that Dame Nellie Melba's brother couldn't sing a note.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, GONSTA said:

The way you carry on about these "unwanted weak sprinters and non chasers" makes it sound like the majority of NZ bred dogs don't fill that bill. Let's take a look at the current standings for NZ bred dogs this season. https://www.thedogs.co.nz/greyhounds/standings.aspx    ... If you go thru that list you will find the majority of them are dogs that can't run 400m, so to blame imports for this is rather short sighted and misleading. 

 

 

"The second thing that i would like to point out is, a lot of these dogs that are sent here are overseas owned. The prize money earned goes one way, and is not reinvested locally to create growth."

 

Half the prize money goes overseas, half goes to the trainer in the majority of cases. This is no different in the other 2 codes where a large number of horses / yearlings are brought from overseas owners and some race here, and a large number go to Asia/Aus etc etc. No one is stopping anyone from sending NZ bred dogs to Aus, the facts are tho the majority of our dogs aren't good enough and if you have a dog that is good enough, eg Thrilling Brat / Above All then you reap the benefits ten fold, and the prize money comes back to NZ. 

Finally aquaman, this is something that has been raised on here many a time, and I'm sure you already know but over half the turnover on NZ greyhound racing is from Australia. Why do you think this is? Is it because we have such a great product / quality of dog compared to Aus? No.

Is it because a large number of dogs are owner by Australians and they like having a bet on them? Do you think the Aussiee would continue betting on our racing if  the majority of imports weren't allowed in? Or is it something different do you think?Greyhound racing in NZ is frowned upon by the majority of kiwis and even a large number of punters that only bet on thoroughbreds or sports. 

You can't have it both ways, if you want to  prize money to diminish then banning the majority of imports would be a sure fire way of making that happen, that is a FACT.

 

One last question aquaman, would you have let Dyna Vikkers into the country to race? He was a non chaser, that hasn't looked like putting a foot wrong in NZ, and I don't know about yourself but I LOVE watching that dog race.

You need to read my post again Gonsta, it is all about improving our breed. So nothing misleading here. The very reason for the post is the very fact NZ breeding by and large is unwanted weak sprinters. The last thing we should be doing is importing more of these unwanted weak, non chasing stock from overseas. Surely even the dim witted can understand this. A fact that probably alludes you Gonsta is, the very reason NZ breeds are by in large weak sprinters has come from indiscriminate breeding to poor quality imports. Not all, there is some good breeding being done.

In answer to your  second point about ownership and stake money is quiet simple. We are not the other two codes that have over 100yrs of solid breeding, and export around the world. Comparatively to the other codes, we are a young sport trying to lift our breeding, and because of this weakness overseas kennels, and breeders use us as a dumping ground for 2nd rate dogs. This in turn is dumbing down our breeding, and siphoning a sizeable amount of stake money offshore thats not reinvested back into the sport.

Your next point is rubbish Gonsta. This is the one that turnover would be affected if we had no imports. For starters i have not stated we should ban imports, but rather lift the quality of the imports. But for arguments sake, lets say we did ban imports, and all races were NZ breeds only. The effect on turnover would not suffer. We no this by the fact that most of our racing is made up of rubbish fields consisting 80% sprints, in fact, probably the lowest, most boring racing in the world. Yet these races as far as turnover goes gets about the same as a top class race made up of quality Greyhounds. Our punting followers have been dumbed down by wall to wall racing where they will bet on two flys on a wall. Your argument that turnover would suffer does not add up. The punters couldn't give a rats ass where the dogs were whelped.

The last point on would i allow DV into the country. Of course, but at a price. Being that he was a non chaser, he would pay the top rate being most undesirable. And he is a good example of this very topic. People will now breed from him in this country, whereas Australians will go to the real deal in his brother further advancing their breed, whilst ours goes backwards. Don't get me wrong, DV has turned out to be an exciting dog in much the same way that other non chasing import Swift Fantasy was. But breeding material no.

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I really object to DV being called a non chaser, anyone can see he is a thinker, and he is chasing his ass off. He got a ticket for marring, he was taken off at the first bend, got out last and made up a stack of ground, all the while probably not seeing the bunny, and almost gets 3rd and has a chew before going into a boring non reward catching pen that offers little for the thinking greyhound. No wonder these types of dogs fight, and plenty of sires have this in their pedigree....such as el galo or vapour whirl, but jese can they throw a dog with speed and are perfectly suited to OUR racing conditions.

DV is a machine, give paul wheeler a call and ask him about him, he could be a sensational sire here in nz. In a few years time, Dyna double one will produce some tidy pups because of the bitches he gets and we will go...oh can we get some DDO semen over....as people label vikkers a 'non chaser'. What a load of crap.

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45 minutes ago, aquaman said:

 

Your next point is rubbish Gonsta. This is the one that turnover would be affected if we had no imports. For starters i have not stated we should ban imports, but rather lift the quality of the imports. But for arguments sake, lets say we did ban imports, and all races were NZ breeds only. The effect on turnover would not suffer. We no this by the fact that most of our racing is made up of rubbish fields consisting 80% sprints, in fact, probably the lowest, most boring racing in the world. Yet these races as far as turnover goes gets about the same as a top class race made up of quality Greyhounds. Our punting followers have been dumbed down by wall to wall racing where they will bet on two flys on a wall. Your argument that turnover would suffer does not add up. The punters couldn't give a rats ass where the dogs were whelped.

 

Aquaman, NZ greyhound racing NEEDS Australian dogs / punters to survive and keep out current stake money. If you honestly think otherwise then you are deluded. The majority of punters in NZ couldn't give a toss about greyhound racing, the only people betting on it are owners / trainers / your mug punters in the tab that bet on every race and the odd greyhound enthusiast like myself that find it a far greater betting oppourtunity than the other 2 codes. It's the complete opposite in Aus, greyhound racing turnover is growing every year, a large number of younger people follow and punt it closely. If there was a ban on a number of Aus dogs then I'm sure Sky in Australia wouldn't think twice about not showing any of our meetings and then you will find the current stake money would be completely unsustainable. Once again go and do some research and find out how much money NZ punters bet on our code last season compared to Australian punters... Why do you think this is? 

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17 minutes ago, Kinetic said:

I really object to DV being called a non chaser, anyone can see he is a thinker, and he is chasing his ass off. He got a ticket for marring, he was taken off at the first bend, got out last and made up a stack of ground, all the while probably not seeing the bunny, and almost gets 3rd and has a chew before going into a boring non reward catching pen that offers little for the thinking greyhound. No wonder these types of dogs fight, and plenty of sires have this in their pedigree....such as el galo or vapour whirl, but jese can they throw a dog with speed and are perfectly suited to OUR racing conditions.

DV is a machine, give paul wheeler a call and ask him about him, he could be a sensational sire here in nz. In a few years time, Dyna double one will produce some tidy pups because of the bitches he gets and we will go...oh can we get some DDO semen over....as people label vikkers a 'non chaser'. What a load of crap.

The bottom line is, its still a black mark as far as Sire material. When looking for a Sire you do not want chasing queries. And to be honest, theres no comparison between DDW and DV on performance. DV has beaten nothing compared to DDW. As for Wheeler, he talks everything up that hes attached to. Hes hardly likely to rubbish DV. But the fact is he's inferiour to his brother, end of story.

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6 minutes ago, GONSTA said:

Aquaman, NZ greyhound racing NEEDS Australian dogs / punters to survive and keep out current stake money. If you honestly think otherwise then you are deluded. The majority of punters in NZ couldn't give a toss about greyhound racing, the only people betting on it are owners / trainers / your mug punters in the tab that bet on every race and the odd greyhound enthusiast like myself that find it a far greater betting oppourtunity than the other 2 codes. It's the complete opposite in Aus, greyhound racing turnover is growing every year, a large number of younger people follow and punt it closely. If there was a ban on a number of Aus dogs then I'm sure Sky in Australia wouldn't think twice about not showing any of our meetings and then you will find the current stake money would be completely unsustainable. Once again go and do some research and find out how much money NZ punters bet on our code last season compared to Australian punters... Why do you think this is? 

I'm glad we agree.

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Haha you are talking about something you know nothing about john.Paul Wheeler has no reason to bag or put one dog ahead of the other re DDO or DV as he owns them both.He couldn't give a crap about NZ and breeding if he didn't want to.He has had substantial offers for DV but is happy to try and give breeders the opportunity to use Vikkers here in NZ.However the truth is he will tell you himself as will Jan that there is very little between the 2 and DV was an extremely hard chaser hence the fighting ticket,as he was looking for his reward at the end of his races.He would be one of the most hardest chasing dogs I have ever trained as well as the most clever.

The only real difference between the 2 is 900K and I am happy to believe the breeder ,rearer and breaker of the 2 when he says there is little difference in ability.

As for breeding out of sub standard imports......look in your own backyard john ,theres no one forcing the kiwis to breed from these dogs in NZ.We are responsible for our own demise.

Heres a plan john,lets put a $1000 fee on breeders that breed out of sprinting bitches and remove the $500 import fee on 500m plus imports.....Its not going to happen is it.

AC

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Personally I think $1500 for Dyna Vikkers at stud is extremely expensive when compared to some of the other unproven stud dogs in Aus such as Banjo Boy, ShakeyJakey, Allen Deed etc who are similar price or only a little bit more, and would all give Vikkers wind burn. I know no one is making anyone pay it but I saw an article by Peter Fenemor yesterday saying its "extremely reasonable"... What a laugh.

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8 hours ago, legs&lashes said:

Haha you are talking about something you know nothing about john.Paul Wheeler has no reason to bag or put one dog ahead of the other re DDO or DV as he owns them both.He couldn't give a crap about NZ and breeding if he didn't want to.He has had substantial offers for DV but is happy to try and give breeders the opportunity to use Vikkers here in NZ.However the truth is he will tell you himself as will Jan that there is very little between the 2 and DV was an extremely hard chaser hence the fighting ticket,as he was looking for his reward at the end of his races.He would be one of the most hardest chasing dogs I have ever trained as well as the most clever.

The only real difference between the 2 is 900K and I am happy to believe the breeder ,rearer and breaker of the 2 when he says there is little difference in ability.

As for breeding out of sub standard imports......look in your own backyard john ,theres no one forcing the kiwis to breed from these dogs in NZ.We are responsible for our own demise.

Heres a plan john,lets put a $1000 fee on breeders that breed out of sprinting bitches and remove the $500 import fee on 500m plus imports.....Its not going to happen is it.

AC

Hey Craig, DV may well go on to be a great stud dog, the proof will be in the pudding. He has been a great dog here in NZ. But the question i ask myself is, if i was breeding, and had to choose between DV and DDO i would have to go to the latter no matter what the difference in stud fee was. Its like comparing a Commonwealth gold medalist as against an Olympic medalist. Lets say DV's stud fee is $1500, and DDO's fee is $5000, and you get 8 pups, that equates to less than $500 a pup, which is insignificant in the cost of rearing pups.

I do like your idea of taxing breeders for using sprint bitches, that has merit. I also agree that no cost to middle and distance imports should apply. But dogs with tickets, and sprinters should be taxed to hell.

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3 hours ago, gary1 said:

i see you say he doesn't give a crap about nz breeding if thats the case why doesn't he take dv home my guess is no aussie would  use him as he has a non chasing ticket and hasnt done much in aust

Hes only been out of the money once in AUS at city tracks (running decent seconds and thirds to some of the best dogs to race in Australia) thats hardly nothing (alot more than what 80% of the dogs do in AUS). If you want to say that, you must have high expectations of your own dogs

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2 hours ago, Sairy said:

Hes only been out of the money once in AUS at city tracks (running decent seconds and thirds to some of the best dogs to race in Australia) thats hardly nothing (alot more than what 80% of the dogs do in AUS). If you want to say that, you must have high expectations of your own dogs

your right  he won at the mead 7 lengths of fastest   . 2nd run  9 plus lengths of the fastest   .3rd run 13 plus lengths of fastest.  4th run  14 plus lengths of fastest  .5th run he won 11 lengths of fastest  ,6th run about 20 lengths of fastest   7th run  about 20 lengths of fastest  i might be wrong in adding this up but if correct i hardly find those times inspiring

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