Addington

[WhoKnows 791]

I see another track inspection down at Addington, there seems to always be problems down there over the last number of years.

Maybe they need a new track curator down there as well!!

[Yankiwi 782]

The problem was obvious (after the fact) to my eyes & the replay tells all.

The dog that had the lead coming out of the corner had its rear legs slip out from underneath it a bit with no other dogs anywhere near it, 2 or 3 strides before it got run down on from behind. I'd guess it incurred a muscle injury during the slip, thus slowing it down even more leaving it straight in the crosshairs of those following it.

It's an animal welfare issue & it's a shame that those in power are unable to see the obvious. Hopefully they'll read this post then watch the replay once again. Dogs should not be slipping on a warm dry surface.

[aquaman 1,352]

Disagree Yani, i thought the leading dog Dizzy States back legs came into contact with the front legs of Wheelchair Norm which caused Dizzy to drag down. Nothing to do with the track in my opinion, but more to do with the traffic.

[Yankiwi 782]

Have another watch of the replay Aquaman if you have it or when it become available on the interweb. You'll see the incident began well before any contact with another dog.

From memory, Dizzy State was two lengths clear of the field nearing the end of the corner. There is a point where I could clearly see her rear legs (at least the right rear) come out from underneath her slightly, towards the outside of the track. I do not believe a fracture was suffered at that point & that is why I had suggested a muscle injury may have occurred. After the slip, she looked a bit less comfortable for the next two or three strides (slowing down) before the first contact with another dog from behind was made, dragging her down & making matters much worse for her.

Regardless, one of two things must have happened. Either DS slipped as I've suggested or a fracture happened free of interference which appeared to be a slip. Either way it's a problem. What other reason would explain the entire field be able to close so fast from behind?

 

[Gotchanow 9]

14 hours ago, aquaman said:

Disagree Yani, i thought the leading dog Dizzy States back legs came into contact with the front legs of Wheelchair Norm which caused Dizzy to drag down. Nothing to do with the track in my opinion, but more to do with the traffic.

Yankiwi is 100% correct I watched the replay frame by frame with the stipes for a long length of time and u can see the injury happend when she was well clear 

[I know 150]

15 hours ago, aquaman said:

Disagree Yani, i thought the leading dog Dizzy States back legs came into contact with the front legs of Wheelchair Norm which caused Dizzy to drag down. Nothing to do with the track in my opinion, but more to do with the traffic.

You should have a go for the new position. 

[Yankiwi 782]

34 minutes ago, Gotchanow said:

Yankiwi is 100% correct I watched the replay frame by frame with the stipes for a long length of time and u can see the injury happend when she was well clear 

I know these things happen in Greyhound racing from time to time and in many instances there is nothing that can be easily done trackwise. These type of incidence generally happen as they're entering the corner (at top speed), not exiting it (at a slower speed). A dog's foot slipping sideways while still in contact with the ground can never be a good thing for the animal.

There is some very clear footage in this instance of it happening this time and hopefully those in power will use that footage to help prevent it from happening again.

The slower the track the safer it is for a dog.

What would be wrong with C5 Addington times struggling to break 18 seconds? They'd still be a second +/- faster than the 30 start maidens.

[modest mouse 469]

Yankiwi for technical advisor.

[Yankiwi 782]

I wonder if a charge will be filed for the indiscretions during Addingtons race #11 today.

You often see one dog trying to run another off the track, but you don't see them successful in actually doing it very often!

[Sheepy 69]

5 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

What would be wrong with C5 Addington times struggling to break 18 seconds? They'd still be a second +/- faster than the 30 start maidens.

Professor/policeman Yankiwi, to my knowledge, to slow the track up methods would be to deeply Harrow the track on a regular bases or increase the water dumped on the track. Both of these loosen up the track so the dogs foot sinks more in its stride and it struggles to gain traction hence doesn't go as fast. 

I want to draw attention to a word I said in the last sentence, 'loosen'. I watch a lot of different sports an when players and commentators talk about a loose surface this is generally followed up by the word 'unsafe'.

Apply this idea of a loose surface back to greyhound racing and yes the dog maybe going slightly slower into and around a bend, but is it actually safer if the dogs feet are shifting out from underneath itself? A good example is when a lot of rain is had in Christchurch and the track slows considerably, the meetings are often abandoned.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on how a track can be made drastically slower and safer.

 

James

[Yankiwi 782]

4 minutes ago, Sheepy said:

Professor/policeman Yankiwi

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on how a track can be made drastically slower and safer.

 

Firstly, my reply will not contain a perceived insult. I was thinking you were better than that.

I suggest insults are reserved for the crowd working very hard against you & your sport, those trying to put an end to greyhound racing & not those trying to make it a better/safer sport.

 

Why was sand chosen as the preferred media to replace grass in the first place?

My roots are in the States. The very first job I had to after graduating high school was at a Greyhound track as a lead out (handler in NZ terms). That track (as well as all the others in the north east as far as I know) did not have a sand surface but one of loam. It was tilled 1 1/2" deep (38mm) +/- with a drag behind after every two or three races (can't precisely remember as it was many years ago) and it felt soft and clearly compressed under my feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmc6FqFFsqM

During my time of employment at the track (9 race meets per week with 12 to 15 race per meet) I never once saw a greyhound carried from the track. After that, as a punter, I attended maybe another 100 race meets and during those I did see one carried from the track. It had tailed off from the field in the backstretch & dropped dead on the track.

I had followed the Greyhounds for more than 10 years on & off earlier in my years, then came to NZ and began again to follow them here. Injuries are far more frequent & serious here then they were back then & there has to be an explanation. I'm sure it isn't simply the advances in video technology highlighting the problem, as I would have been astute enough to realize if a dog was running out a race with a broken hock or not. I'm sure you'll agree it's kind of obvious.

 

[Yankiwi 782]

Long jumpers have found a way to use sand to absorb energy during their crash landing.

I think you'll find that they don't pour heaps of water on it to make it softer.

On the beach where is the sand the hardest?

Where it's still wet from the waves washing back & forth over it, or 10 meters away from that wet sand where your feet sink in, making it much more difficult to walk.

Our current method is fighting against physics, not using it to advantage. The things which are being gained using the current method is faster race times & increased injury risk.

If sand wasn't able to made safer, track stars wouldn't be crash landing into it, as they have the last say for their own welfare, a benefit Greyhounds don't have for themselves.

[gary1 361]

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

Long jumpers have found a way to use sand to absorb energy during their crash landing.

I think you'll find that they don't pour heaps of water on it to make it softer.

On the beach where is the sand the hardest?

Where it's still wet from the waves washing back & forth over it, or 10 meters away from that wet sand where your feet sink in, making it much more difficult to walk.

Our current method is fighting against physics, not using it to advantage. The things which are being gained using the current method is faster race times & increased injury risk.

If sand wasn't able to made safer, track stars wouldn't be crash landing into it, as they have the last say for their own welfare, a benefit Greyhounds don't have for themselves.

i think james is quoting from from rob brittons thoughts

[gary1 361]

2 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

Firstly, my reply will not contain a perceived insult. I was thinking you were better than that.

I suggest insults are reserved for the crowd working very hard against you & your sport, those trying to put an end to greyhound racing & not those trying to make it a better/safer sport.

 

Why was sand chosen as the preferred media to replace grass in the first place?

My roots are in the States. The very first job I had to after graduating high school was at a Greyhound track as a lead out (handler in NZ terms). That track (as well as all the others in the north east as far as I know) did not have a sand surface but one of loam. It was tilled 1 1/2" deep (38mm) +/- with a drag behind after every two or three races (can't precisely remember as it was many years ago) and it felt soft and clearly compressed under my feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmc6FqFFsqM

During my time of employment at the track (9 race meets per week with 12 to 15 race per meet) I never once saw a greyhound carried from the track. After that, as a punter, I attended maybe another 100 race meets and during those I did see one carried from the track. It had tailed off from the field in the backstretch & dropped dead on the track.

I had followed the Greyhounds for more than 10 years on & off earlier in my years, then came to NZ and began again to follow them here. Injuries are far more frequent & serious here then they were back then & there has to be an explanation. I'm sure it isn't simply the advances in video technology highlighting the problem, as I would have been astute enough to realize if a dog was running out a race with a broken hock or not. I'm sure you'll agree it's kind of obvious.

 

a very good reply

[Slim Shady 479]

12 hours ago, modest mouse said:

Yankiwi for technical advisor.

It wasnt that long ago I would of agreed with you on this statement but......just lately Charles (yankiwi) I've begun to notice that some of the paragraphs you are writing reek of words similar to a reformed smoker, now that you have finished up as an owner and LP I almost get the impression your starting to turn against this sport? I certainly hope this is not the case as I respect you as a person and find your rulebook knowledge and interpretation very astute and informative. We have all had our ups and downs, bad buys and mis dealings in this sport but have not "turned against" it......aaron cross was born on the back of this very same scenario you know.

[Sheepy 69]

I used the term sand in a general sense. A quick qoogle of the term loam reviels the addington track is in fact loam as it is a combination of sand and clay, (of which I believe the clay to be a major cause of all problems). 

I am well aware on how the tracks are prepared in America. I believe now they are, (at least at certain tracks) harrowed an groomed after each race. I am aware of the statistics on American race dogs having a lot longer racing careers. I have listened to Robert Britton talk at lengths about how American tracks are safer for being harrowed an then I talk to George Daily about it (another who frequents race tracks and sales in America regularly) and he tells me about a large breeder he visited over there. Has over 70 broods. And the majority of them walk around with slight limps from broken hocks. He believes harrowing the tracks so regularly is a step backwards and the cause of them. 

I don't find your long jump example very relevant as the sand is only used for stopping not the surface being run on. Could you imagine an athlete leaping from the end of the track if it was sand. THIS is the point I was trying to make. The athlete would not have a stable base to plant their foot much like a dog wouldn't have a stable base to plant its foot round a bend if the track was loosend. I'd say if you were to compare dog racing to an athletic event it would be the hurdle race. They both go around bends at speed an the hurdles would somewhat replicate the checks a dog may get. 

 

On on a side note as you talk of your experiences in America an the less injuries that occur, what percentage of races you handled in were less than 400m? Over 520 or equivalent how far was it to the winning post the first time and was the lure further in front when the boxes open (I've heard it is)? 

 

James

[aquaman 1,352]

Have had another look at this race, and now of the opinion dog do'es faulter just before being dragged down from behind. I suspect the hock was going when he faulters.

[Yankiwi 782]

9 hours ago, Slim Shady said:

It wasnt that long ago I would of agreed with you on this statement but......just lately Charles (yankiwi) I've begun to notice that some of the paragraphs you are writing reek of words similar to a reformed smoker, now that you have finished up as an owner and LP I almost get the impression your starting to turn against this sport? I certainly hope this is not the case as I respect you as a person and find your rulebook knowledge and interpretation very astute and informative. We have all had our ups and downs, bad buys and mis dealings in this sport but have not "turned against" it......aaron cross was born on the back of this very same scenario you know.

I can assure you that I still smoke cigarettes at the same rate as last time you saw me so there are no withdrawal symptoms there.

As for ownership, it didn't take me very long to realize that the buzz coming from a win on the track was far to costly for me dollarwise. My personal end result realized a negative 70% return on investment in the short term I was an owner. I also found during that time that the higher purchase price of a dog was, the lower the end return was monetarily, although bad luck played a big part in those numbers. I knew of the risks before I got in to ownership and unfortunately just about every potential risk there was caught up with me during my tenure.

No longer being an owner & with no intention of every handling, there was no longer a benefit to me of holding a licence. However if I were to continue to retain the license I would still remain bound to follow the GRNZ rule book. I politely relinquished that licence back to GRNZ as I no longer wanted/needed it.

I now know that ownership isn't for me, however greyhound racing remains a passion.

I do not know AC, I know of him, however from what I know, I think we are very very different people.

[Yankiwi 782]

11 hours ago, Sheepy said:

On on a side note as you talk of your experiences in America an the less injuries that occur, what percentage of races you handled in were less than 400m? Over 520 or equivalent how far was it to the winning post the first time and was the lure further in front when the boxes open (I've heard it is)? 

My time handling on the track was in the early 80's. The name of the track was "Hinsdale Raceway" which now has been leveled & a Walmart built in its place, the American way aye?

Rare (saw maybe two races) were 3/16 mile (300m) races (never handled)

75% of races were 5/16 mile (500m)

25% of races were 3/8 mile (600m)

Rare (saw maybe six races) were 7/16 mile (700m) races (never handled)

 

That track was very different in configuration, as were all tracks I had attended (Seabrook, Green Mountain, Plainfield, Raynham/Taunton, Wonderland). The starting boxes were in the same relative position as the two turn tracks are here. The winning post was in the middle of the home stretch, not entering the corner. The straights were notably longer and the corners notably sharper, which made the distance between the parallels of the front & back stretch notably less in distance apart.

The lure was further ahead of the dogs when the gate opened and further away from the rail as well.

The distance between boxes & winning post the first time, I don't have the answer. In the video link I had provided in my previous post I've counted 20 strides until the #1 dog (35kg's) reaches the winning post the first time for comparison purposes. But bear in mind, the straight continues for quite some distance past the post before the corner starts.

 

My interpretation of loam is

"a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loam

A key word is friable (crumbly)

 

Same track, full 15 race meet replay. Includes a 7/16 mile (700m) race & a couple of 9 dog race race field (races 13 & 15), during mid winter, snow included.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDu3ffsIov8

[Slim Shady 479]

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

I can assure you that I still smoke cigarettes at the same rate as last time you saw me so there are no withdrawal symptoms there.

As for ownership, it didn't take me very long to realize that the buzz coming from a win on the track was far to costly for me dollarwise. My personal end result realized a negative 70% return on investment in the short term I was an owner. I also found during that time that the higher purchase price of a dog was, the lower the end return was monetarily, although bad luck played a big part in those numbers. I knew of the risks before I got in to ownership and unfortunately just about every potential risk there was caught up with me during my tenure.

No longer being an owner & with no intention of every handling, there was no longer a benefit to me of holding a licence. However if I were to continue to retain the license I would still remain bound to follow the GRNZ rule book. I politely relinquished that licence back to GRNZ as I no longer wanted/needed it.

I now know that ownership isn't for me, however greyhound racing remains a passion.

I do not know AC, I know of him, however from what I know, I think we are very very different people.

Appreciate the reply mate and all the best with your punting....