Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 24, 2015 In the wake of yesterday's Cox Plate demolition and the rising of the superstar that is Winx I was this morning thinking about the seemingly high success rate of Machiavellian sire sons in Australasian. I can't think of too many failures as far as his sons go down here, Street Cry has had a few great horses, Storming Home was relatively successful from one small crop, No Excuse Needed was a success but overshadowed by his barn mates, Vettori and Almutuwakel having left group one winners in Australasia also. Can't think of a sire in recent times with such a high success rate as a sire of sires and seemingly not as well sourced as he could have been. Maybe he has had his fair share of flops but on first look he looks successful. Do you think he will be an ongoing influence with some of his grandsons? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 24, 2015 I meant Australasia-damn auto correct smartphones! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 25, 2015 With the right mare we could breed back to Machiavellian for decades. Firstly we should look at pedigree of Winx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 25, 2015 I always start with 1st dam....I believe she is the strongest influence.. in this case Vegas Showgirl, and she has a bias to her opposite sex. so travel up her male line and we seeduplication of Prince John. With the stallion, his bias is to his opposite sex and i believe he is vulnerable to the brood-mare sires in that line so in this case Prince John is the perfect horse to bring Riverman to his knees Then look at the 2nd dam .Vegas Magic ..and here is the answer to what you are asking . Looking up the male line of Vegas Magic it traces to Northern Dancer. And he is the key why Machiavellian line stallions will go on for decades. There is so much Northern Dancer blood about and the line breeding pattern that occurs with Machiavellian line stallions is to his dam Natalma. Both Machiavellian and his brood-mare sire Halo are so closely connected to him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 25, 2015 The dam of this horse perfect for Machiavellian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,874 Report post Posted October 25, 2015 What sires of mares and/or what sires of the mares dams would work perfectly with Jakkalberry? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 The major proportion of mares in NZ trace back in male line to either Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector or Sir Ivor and Jakkalberry has what it takes to suit all of them, Northern Dancer through Machiavellian,and Halo, the position of Mr Prospector as a brood-mare sire in Storming Home and Sir Ivor as brood-mare sire in Shareef Dancer. Learning from other stallions like Zabeel ( he was a miler but left Cup and Derby horses very much like Le Filou same female family ) I would be looking at the tail female line of Jakkalberry to provide the big influence. This family traces back to brood-mare Malva, dam of English Derby winner Blenheim. So any mare that traces in male line toBlenheim him will great match. There wont be too many mares around with him on the 1st dam line but plenty lower down. mares by Alcimedes, Busted, Crest Of The Wave, Indian Order, Fury's Order, Gate Keeper, Half Iced, Idomeneo, Jekyll, March Legend, Oncidium, Persian Garden II, Pevero, Red Anchor, Shy Boy,or Valuta all trace back to Blenheim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 After looking at Jakkalberry's female line I would then try and duplicating the brood-mare sires in that line. Will be a little harder to duplicate Barathea and Law Society but Shirley Heights easier. Pentire's dam is a three parts sister to Shirley Heights so these mares would be hot prospects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 Looking at last seasons top two year olds Dal Cielo and Marky Mark, both by stallions that come from the Mr Prospector sire line. Both have mares in their pedigree that trace in male line back to Tourbillon. Jakkalberry has a double of Mr Prospector so Centaine mares would be high on my list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 Thanks Swynford, quite interesting insights. What strikes me with a lot of the good horses by from this line; Whobegotyou, Winx, Zenyatta, Lion Tamer etc is their finishing ability. Whether that's an inhereted trait or not I don't know-is one paced speed/acceleration something you inheret or not it's hard to say but it is seemingly an ability many of the top horses from that line seem to possess-if that makes any sense, probably just coincidental. Black Kirrama 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,874 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 Swynford, thank you for your very informative response. Hopefully a lot of Pentire and Centaine broodmare owners will use the horse (Jakkalberry) and achieve great results. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 I agree the Machiavellian line stallions we have are great prospects. Per Incanto just had another great weekend with Tennessee remaining unbeaten. Just checked Jakkalberry's pedigree on www.Arion.co.nz and he would have to have the best 1st dam of any Group One winning stallion at stud in NZ. I think these stallions work well with most broodmare lines and especially with the large amount of Danzig line mares we have like Volksraad, Danehill lines etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 Hopefully both Jakkalberry and Shocking prove successful for this sire line in NZ as both could potentially fill a major void in the staying ranks left by Zabeel as both possessed the ability to stay 2 miles especially Shocking attaining access to Petire broodmare, I'm not sure if he is compatible genetically with Petite but an uninformed assumption would be that this cross would go over ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 once again auto correct is not my friend! not sure if he would cross well with PETITE mares..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 26, 2015 A few similarities with this mares pedigree and that of Winx, and Jakkalberry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazach 133 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 I was very impressed with Jakkalberry at the stallion parade recently. He is a beautiful walker, and a very well balanced horse. What he has over Shocking, in my opinion, is a stronger female line descending in direct female line from the dam of NZ stallions Crest of the Wave and Palm Beach, and further back from the dam of champion NZ sire Summertime. A mare with some pace would be good to stop breeding a horse which was too dour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Agree with you Bazach, and I will be very interested to see if any mare with Tourbillion on their male line somewhere, especially a mare with two lines, even lower down in the pedigree can throw a top class two year old and looking at last years top two year olds I think he can. American Pharoh is also carries that pattern. Another pedigree I saw recently which could be well worth trying is Exceed And Excel mares. The pedigree is the speedy Petits Filous. Know she got beaten in the Group One but I 'm sure she will be back. When studying the pedigrees of many of Exceed and Ecel's top liners and early maturers Mr Prospector, and mares from his direct female line appear on a regular basis. And I think Lomond is the key. Petits Filous pedigree is similar pattern but in reverse. Can't help but also see that like Jakkalberry, Street Boss is connected to Summertime through his female line although deep. Edited October 27, 2015 by Swynford Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canelo 459 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 Swynford, where did you pluck the pedigree of Sarong from? I know this mare very well from my stud days and owned a close relation to her. I think sarong actually won a race in Singapore at over 100/1 a few years back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 my data base builds up over the years and not sure were they all come from. The important thing with this mare is not just the close connection between E & E and Machiavellian, but the strong connection lower in the pedigree with Jakkalberry's female line as well. Looking back at the pedigree of Winx I wouldn't under estimate the input of Sovereign Edition either. There will be lots of mares about with him lower in their pedigree. An alternative would be to find a mare from his family. Plenty of these in New Zealand and well known as the Alynda or Betty Box family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeder 599 Report post Posted October 27, 2015 Looking at the results of the Horses in Training Sale by Tattersalls, in Ireland, there was an interesting lot sold overnight. Lot 644 Stoneheart. unraced 3yr colt by Shamardal x Loving Kindness. Shamardal brings in a female line of Machiavellian ( he is the sire of the dam of Shamardal) and Loving Kindness has as her dam Coup de Genie who is a full sister to Machiavellian. The colt sold for just 5000 Euros. He was the property of Darley, so there must have been something wrong with him , but interesting blood lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 28, 2015 Lot 644 it is an interesting pedigree. Probably lacks any other strong line breeding pattern especially with the 1st dam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 28, 2015 Always thought this was a pretty amazing pedigree and often wonder about the importance of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeder 599 Report post Posted October 28, 2015 Swynford Loving Kindness may lack "pure" line breeding patterns but she has plenty of good female factors and I like to see the similarity of breeding that is seen in Marching Home and Raise a Native (ie. not exact matches but a good mixture of similar lines ). But it is academic as Stoneheart must have been slow or had something wrong with him for Darley to sell so cheaply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted October 28, 2015 Breeder.... its not that I didn't like Loving Kindness bloodlines ...and I think the pedigree of Stoneheart with Machiavellian and his sister is certainly an exciting line breeding pattern. I would love to breed from a mare like this and Machiavellian would most certainly be at the top of the list when looking for a stallion for her. The point I was considering is there is no real connection between Loving Kindness and the stallions pedigree and wondered how important that may be to the outcome of the progeny. eg Is creating duplications or line breeding patterns through both parents of the mare part of the recipe for success especially when close "inbreeding" like this. The pedigree below is of the top two Year Old in the Northern Hemisphere at the moment and according to Frankie Dettori 'the best two year old I have ever sat on in my whole life" . and then goes on to say "i'm not exaggerating" It involves very close inbreeding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...