Scratching Penalties

[eljay 1,719]

I thought this was nationwide nowdays. There were no penalties listed for last nights meeting at Addington.

[Gavin Cook 0]

I am fairly sure that it starts from 1st October. This means the BPTC meeting on Sunday 2nd will be the first occasion in Canterbury when the stipes enforce this change.

[eljay 1,719]

Thanks Gavin - yes you are right. Just looked it up in HRNZ web site.

[Carbine01 0]

Will this be good or bad for the game?

[password 0]

Will this be good or bad for the game?

bad for horses, owners, trainers,

[Gray Fox 0]

It will be good for the industry. It will mean a greater level of certainty for clubs when programming races that those races will remain a viable product.

Races that are decimated by unnecessary scratchings leading to small field impact adversely on tote turnover. Low turnover flows through into lower stakes which is to the detriment of owners & trainers.

i believe that this change has come as a result of the irresponsible behaviour of many owners and trainers who have used/manipulated this loophole in an attempt to advantage themselves & their horses. Unfortunately when this behaviour is applied in excess it hurts everyone.

So in future when nominating a horse owners & trainers will need to be genuine about their intentions. Once accepted, those that scratch for reasons that are not genuine or cannot be substantiated will incur a penalty.

This change has the support of the trainers and drivers organisation so they can obviously see the need/benefits. I believe it is a good move and not before time !

[kimtapper 7]

bad for horses, owners, trainers,

I agree with 'password'

It is also bad for clubs and going to get worse with fewer horses with scratching penalties.

eg.In Canterbury if you have an average horse you may look at heading to Forbury but if you draw wide or out in the 2nd row,this horse still has little chance of a return.Who wants the cost of this trip and the time involved?

Isn't the club better off getting the nomination and with a reasonable draw the horse starting than NOT nominating at all and the race meeting abandoned!

[Stables 577]

Gray Fox,

You are obviously not an owner or trainer. With the current handicapping system, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice 3 year old, it is impossible to win a race if you draw badly or you are up against potential derby or oaks horses. With clubs frequently leaving nominations open after the advertised closing time, you are often accepting for a race without knowing the calabre of horses you are racing against. If you have a nice horse which isn't classic material but can win a few races, this becomes impossible if you are constantly racing 3 year olds which have handicapping concessions. By racing these horses week after week all you do is break your horses heart. At least up till now you have been able to scratch if your horse draws badly or the field is too strong for your horse. By introducing these scratching penalties clubs which have been struggling to fill fields will have an even smaller pool of horses the following week. Under the current system a horse that wins on a Tuesday meeting gets a full handicapping penalty whereas a 3 year old will only get a half penalty even if it wins the derby. The system was already too heavily weighted towards 2 and 3 year old racing and now with the introduction of scratching penalties this problem will be compounded. I predict that the already large numbers of horses being exported to Australia will become a mass exodus leaving clubs with no horsrs to fill their fields except 2 and 3 year olds.

[kimtapper 7]

I totally agree with 'Stables".

What i didn't mention in my post above is the part about leaving noms OPEN.

At the moment the trainer can look at the noms and feel he can be competitive in that particular race but......when they extend the nomination time one does not get to see any additional horses nominated and your horse goes from being competitive to having no show.

Now from Oct 1 you will also receive a scratching penalty for pulling out of said race.

[Gray Fox 0]

STABLES - You are totally wrong, I am both a trainer and an owner.

Many things are impacting upon the viability of clubs. One of them is carding a race programme which is subsequently decimated by scratchings, potentially rendering the meeting unprofitable.

The habit of owners & trainers of not honouring their nomination has had it's day. The Trainers & Drivers Assoc has seen the light and put this change through at the last conference. They have obviously realised that the behaviour that has historically been encouraged by a lack of scratching penalty was damaging the sport.

The reasons given by other posters why the scratching penalty is not a good idea appear to be entirely selfish. The over riding ethos seems to be I willl scratch because things don't suit me now and to hell with the clubs and everyone else in the industry.

The time has come when everyone will be nominating with more care and integrity.

[Carbine01 0]

Forbury has had the scratching penalties for a while and they are the ones having to can their meetings with not getting nominations because a trainer would prefer to nominate for Addington or Timaru this week as they don't have the penalty. It will even out a bit now that they too will have it but still it's not what owners and trainers want. But then again who has ever cared what owners and trainers want?

[Stables 577]

I don't believe you Gray Fox. You are obviously a club administrator

[Carbine01 0]

STABLES - You are totally wrong, I am both a trainer and an owner.

Many things are impacting upon the viability of clubs. One of them is carding a race programme which is subsequently decimated by scratchings, potentially rendering the meeting unprofitable.

The habit of owners & trainers of not honouring their nomination has had it's day. The Trainers & Drivers Assoc has seen the light and put this change through at the last conference. They have obviously realised that the behaviour that has historically been encouraged by a lack of scratching penalty was damaging the sport.

The reasons given by other posters why the scratching penalty is not a good idea appear to be entirely selfish. The over riding ethos seems to be I willl scratch because things don't suit me now and to hell with the clubs and everyone else in the industry.

The time has come when everyone will be nominating with more care and integrity.

Name the last time a South Island meeting was decimated by scratchings. You haven't a clue mate. KimTapper and Stables are right on the mark. Re-read their posts and learn something. Actually the people running the game need to read them too or else they will be out of a job in the near future. But hey the greyhounds are set to take up the slack once trotting bites the dust.

[Gray Fox 0]

STABLES - Definitely not a club administrator, most definitely a trainer and an owner.

A T & O who comes from a business background and can't believe the industry has allowed their product suppliers(Owners & Trainers) to treat them so callously through non delivery of product (Horses) when the whim suits them.

Still I can see how the habit has evolved. In a previous era when there were plenty of horses and owners & trainers were desperate for starts, you only scratched when you really had too.

Fields were also carded with multiple emergencies so the clubs were very relaxed about the scratchings.

Those days are gone and now and clubs are desperate to retain the integrity of the fields carded. Owners and trainers are being asked to honour the undertaking they give when nominating

their horse. Surely it's not too much to ask for them to deliver the product that they promised.

[Gray Fox 0]

TO CARBINE01 - Addington 16/9/11, 87 acceptors and 21 scratchings. Thats 24% scratchings rate. Certainly sufficient to have a detrimental effect on turnover and club viability.

The point to consider is the behaviour and attitude endemic in the industry and reinforced by both STABLES and KIMTAPPER posts. That it is OK to scratch regardless of the reason and regardless of how it impacts upon the club and industry.

My sole contention is that it does matter. Scratching for genuine and validated reasons are fine. Scratchings for spurious reasons are not.

[Carbine01 0]

But the NZ Metro fields still stacked up well for good racing and betting. And Forbury has the scratching penalty and they're the ones scrapping meetings. Oh well from next month NZ Metro and Timaru lose their advantage over Forbury and they might be scrapping their meetings instead. If that's what they want so be it. If NZ Metro and another club are racing the same week especially a grass track meeting then NZ Metro will be the club under pressure because trainers and owners prefer the country club meetings by a long shot. So why NZ Metro would want the scratching penalties is unbelievable. It's been to their advantage lately.

[Carbine01 0]

TO CARBINE01 - Addington 16/9/11, 87 acceptors and 21 scratchings. Thats 24% scratchings rate. Certainly sufficient to have a detrimental effect on turnover and club viability.

The point to consider is the behaviour and attitude endemic in the industry and reinforced by both STABLES and KIMTAPPER posts. That it is OK to scratch regardless of the reason and regardless of how it impacts upon the club and industry.

My sole contention is that it does matter. Scratching for genuine and validated reasons are fine. Scratchings for spurious reasons are not.

spurious is a harsh word when KimTapper has made the reasoning clear without any

hint of being spurious about it. He was very honest about it actually.

[Stables 577]

STABLES - Definitely not a club administrator, most definitely a trainer and an owner.

A T & O who comes from a business background and can't believe the industry has allowed their product suppliers(Owners & Trainers) to treat them so callously through non delivery of product (Horses) when the whim suits them.

Still I can see how the habit has evolved. In a previous era when there were plenty of horses and owners & trainers were desperate for starts, you only scratched when you really had too.

Fields were also carded with multiple emergencies so the clubs were very relaxed about the scratchings.

Those days are gone and now and clubs are desperate to retain the integrity of the fields carded. Owners and trainers are being asked to honour the undertaking they give when nominating

their horse. Surely it's not too much to ask for them to deliver the product that they promised.

Gray Fox, You talk of honouring contracts when entering horses for race meetings. How do clubs honour their contract to those nominating horses by the advertised nomination time when they continuosly extend that deadline, thereby creating a situation where you are accepting for a race when you have no idea what the constitution of the field will be. I too have an extensive business background, but in business I would never enter into a contract without fully understanding what I am committing to. This is not the case in harness racing as the scratching penalty will now remove the ability for me to opt out of racing a horse against horses that I had no idea my horse would be competing against

[pilli 81]

But hey the greyhounds are set to take up the slack once trotting bites the dust.

I am more than happy to recommend a quality Greyhound Trainer for you when the need arises.

[eljay 1,719]

Scratching penalties have been in force for quite a few years in the north. Owners/trainers to my knowledge have no problem with this system. Not being a driver I only surmising but your draw would surely be taken into account when you planned your drive. I hate to think under the "we are always right Canterbury thinking" how many scratchings would have occurred in the Summer Cup tonight after connections saw Pembroke Benny had drawn the ace. Perhaps some of the passive drivers in the south could do with a sojourn in the north to learn a few skills rather than meekly hand it on a plate to either the horse with the best draw or with the best driver.

[Carbine01 0]

Scratching penalties have been in force for quite a few years in the north. Owners/trainers to my knowledge have no problem with this system. Not being a driver I only surmising but your draw would surely be taken into account when you planned your drive. I hate to think under the "we are always right Canterbury thinking" how many scratchings would have occurred in the Summer Cup tonight after connections saw Pembroke Benny had drawn the ace. Perhaps some of the passive drivers in the south could do with a sojourn in the north to learn a few skills rather than meekly hand it on a plate to either the horse with the best draw or with the best driver.

Lots of summising here. So Cantabrians would take horses up to Auckland and scratch because of a bad draw? Doubt it. They usually kick ass anyway no matter the draw. Where do you think the good horses come from?

[Carbine01 0]

oops should be surmising

[Stables 577]

Eljay, the Northern Clubs do not have a policy of accepting nominations after closing time

[eljay 1,719]

Lots of summising here. So Cantabrians would take horses up to Auckland and scratch because of a bad draw? Doubt it. They usually kick ass anyway no matter the draw. Where do you think the good horses come from?

You have just shot yourself in the foot - if they can win from any draw why they anti the scratching penalties??

[eljay 1,719]

Stables - you obviously have not looked at the noms over the past months. Many meetings have extended noms beyond the advertised closing time.